Today I found out Sig pistol accuracy standard is a joke

[lwt16]

I’d find a solid 25 yard shooter and see what he/she can do with it. I’ve shot dozens of P320s and none of them were that inaccurate.

Even a pocket gun should do better. Here’s an Interarms PPK that I repaired today and tested for a customer.



Just messing around at the 25 yard line with five Gold Dot .380s. off hand freestyle. I wish you were closer so I could run it.

The broken trigger bar concerns me as I have heard of others breaking. Any chance you have a pic of that?

Regards.

[Yung]

A glance at their customer support FAQs on their website:

My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a “combat” sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bullseye of the target. Using a six o’clock (“pumpkin on a post”) or center mass (“half’n’half”) sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2 inch groupings @ 10 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis.

A glance toward the end of the P365 manual, linked from the SAS variant's product description page, describes sight windage and elevation adjustments at 25 yards.

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/...12-26-2018.pdf

Note the update isn't current with the date of release. I'm focusing on the SAS because I specifically recall a service bulletin regarding factory accuracy standards posted on the board by the entrance to my local range.

I'll pop over there and snap a picture real quick.

[HCM]

I'm going to get this out right up front before I get into the story:

Sig Sauer pistol accuracy standards is 2.5" at 10 yards fired from a bench.

I'm going to let that one sink in. Across the board all guns are measured to that standard. Buy a $1500 Sig P210 Target? That's the standard. Has to be worse than that to be considered a problem. Just to be clear I'm not saying Sig accuracy sucks across the board; I'm sure some of their guns have great accuracy; I'm saying the standard which they use to measure is unacceptable.

The story:
I shot a Sig P320 X5 Legion back in September. It was incredible to shoot and I had to have one. I bought one in Oct. Right out of the gate the accuracy was disappointing but not dramatically so; just outside the realm of what I find is acceptable for what is supposedly a target/competition gun. I thought it was me learning the gun, trigger, sights etc. It still performs well when I went to shoot plate racks at 10 yards.

(As an aside within the first 500 rounds in the trigger bar breaks. Straight up breaks at the end of the range session; gun is inoperable. I call Sig they have me send it in and replace it. Took about 8 days total which is great customer service.)

I decide to mount a red dot to it. I get a Springer Precision plate and mount a Holosun. I take it to the range and put it on a bench at 25 yards to sight it in. Gun is all over the place at 25 yards. Like 7-8" at 25 yards so I can't get a zero on the dot. I assume the dot is the culprit and call Holosun and 10 minutes later I have an email with a return label. I mail the dot to them.

A little less than 2 weeks later I get the dot back. This past weekend I try to sight it in at 20 yards and I'm getting 6" which isn't great. (BTW on the same day I do this I bring my Sig P365 and I basically get the same size group off hand with the P365 as I did with the P320 X5 Legion from a rest) Now I start thinking maybe it's the ammo? Well the same ammo did good in my P365 so I scratch my head but still Ammo is the culprit

I decide to call Sig to find out what kind of ammo they use to test these guns because I want to see if maybe it is the ammo. The tech on the phone tells me they use a wide variety of ammo and then tells me they test it at 10 yards and I'm gobsmacked. He agrees to email me the target they use to test for accuracy. This is the target:


Attachment 48037

I'm dumbfounded. Even my least accuracy gun can do 2.5" at 10 yards. I'm not sure what to do with this gun now because it's not accurate and sending it to Sig the standard is so low it won't matter even if they do "fix" it.

Am I blowing this out of proportion or is this accuracy standard an extremely low bar?

What ammo have you been using ? Factory ? Reloads ?

Have you tried it again with the irons to ensure it’s not the dot ?

[Yung]

[CCT125US]

Meanwhile over at HK:

Right, 1 mil.



From about this time last year, with a subcompact.

[FreedomFries]

Meanwhile over at HK:

Right, 1 mil.



From about this time last year, with a subcompact.

OK, but does that P2000SK come in a two tone Equinox finish version?

[YVK]

I didn’t read every post, but are others reporting poor accuracy with the 320 Legion or X5?

No. Every one of them I've seen around me were plenty accurate. You don't command 1/3 of USPSA Nationals division market share with 2.5 inches / 10 yards accuracy.

There are two separate problems. First, assuming this is not an optic / ammo / shooter's error, the gun is a lemon, loud and clear. Second, SIG's reported accuracy criteria are low enough that even a lemon, by a reasonable user's standard, would pass their accuracy QC.

Before everyone dogpiles on SIG, I can quite certainly say that S&W has the same accuracy standard, or at least had it in 2011 when I went through this with my M&P. I could not keep half of the mag on 11x8 at 25. I am sure most people remember that systematic accuracy fiasco. I don't know if too many remember that S&W used the same accuracy standard.

This sucks but it is not surprising in an industry that doesn't have set and agreed on criteria on accuracy, reliability, or durability.

If I were in OP's place, I would put some solid effort to exclude a non-gun reason, shoot different ammo, from a Ransom, different dots, different shooters, other shooters who have had good results with the Legion, and still appeal to some supervisor at the SIG. Email Phil Strader, or somebody higher up.

[mrozowjj]

No. Every one of them I've seen around me were plenty accurate. You don't command 1/3 of USPSA Nationals division market share with 2.5 inches / 10 yards accuracy.

There are two separate problems. First, assuming this is not an optic / ammo / shooter's error, the gun is a lemon, loud and clear. Second, SIG's reported accuracy criteria are low enough that even a lemon, by a reasonable user's standard, would pass their accuracy QC.

Before everyone dogpiles on SIG, I can quite certainly say that S&W has the same accuracy standard, or at least had it in 2011 when I went through this with my M&P. I could not keep half of the mag on 11x8 at 25. I am sure most people remember that systematic accuracy fiasco. I don't know if too many remember that S&W used the same accuracy standard.

This sucks but it is not surprising in an industry that doesn't have set and agreed on criteria on accuracy, reliability, or durability.

If I were in OP's place, I would put some solid effort to exclude a non-gun reason, shoot different ammo, from a Ransom, different dots, different shooters, other shooters who have had good results with the Legion, and still appeal to some supervisor at the SIG. Email Phil Strader, or somebody higher up.

This guy get's it.

Everyone telling me to trouble shoot the gun is missing the point. I am trouble shooting and that's why I called Sig in the first place. I wanted them to suggest some ammo I should use to test in the gun the next time I went to the range so that I didn't run through half a dozen brands before maybe finding one that was good. (Which by the way they didn't suggest an ammo. They just said "We use a lot. I think we have some Blazer back there and we definitely have Sig ammo.") The gun might have an issue, might be ammo or the dot or whatever but none of that is the point of this post.

The point of this post is the Sig accuracy standard is so laughably bad that if a lemon does slip through would still meet their standard. Every company occasionally makes a lemon and the few times I've had a lemon or an issue the company has always made it right but in this case if this is a lemon it will still meet their standard.

[Rock185]

Wow, 2 1/2" at 10 yards. That would equate to 6 1/4" at 25 Yards/Terrible. I haven't had any SIGs that grouped that poorly, but what a low bar. I've owned SIGs since the '80s, was a SIG armorer, and carried a SIG every working day for several years. But that minimum level of "accuracy" seems to be intended to ensure every SIG can be said to "meet factory specs" if/when some buyer complains to Customer Service....

[Kirk]

I've got to be honest, both of my P320 X5s (not Legions) were very accurate, easily 2"at 25y off-hand with the stock Dawson irons. If you are also having problems with the P365, could it be operator or ammo related?