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Thread: Vietnam era history odd shotgun (?) fact and question

  1. #1
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    Vietnam era history odd shotgun (?) fact and question

    Being a very amateur historian I was reading up on the old M-79 grenade launcher. As one does. (I had a lot of fun shooting these during my Second Class cruise as a midshipman in 1975.)

    The odd fact: the buckshot load for the M-79 was 20 pellets of 24 grain "metal" balls (subsonic too). I put metal in quotes as that's what the specs said and perhaps the implication is that they weren't simple lead balls. This appears to duplicate one of the more common 20 gauge 2 3/4" loads today. The M-79 was only 6 pound weapon so the relatively light load could be recoil related but it's really not very impressive.

    The question: To those who were there or have better data than I, did these historically work? The M-203 of course obviated the need for a close in self defense load of this type of loading. Still, imagine being in a fight with a single shot 20 gauge extractor only shotgun.

  2. #2
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    Speculation on my part...the Geneva protocols forbad non-jacketed bullets, which led to strange things like FMJ rounds in .22 LR and .38 S&W as well as .38 Special. My guess is that the M79 shot round was sorta the precursor to steel shot waterfowl loads. Not sure, but I think there were also flechette rounds for the M79.

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    The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[2] It is a common misapprehension that hollow-point ammunition is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, as the prohibition significantly predates those conventions. The Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, along with weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention and the United Nations. That is until the United States started issuing the new Sig-Sauer, M-17 9mm pistol, with the Winchester Arms company making a hollow point bullet for the new squad level pistol, and subsequently deploying soldiers with this ammunition.[3]
    Wiki - not Geneva. Here's a medal by a famous German medallic artist denouncing French Dum Dums

    https://karlgoetz.com/ImageDetail.aspx?idImage=72

  4. #4
    I’m also an amateur historian, so this is worth what you paid for it.

    From what I’ve read, the buckshot 40mm load was among a number of specialty rounds that were developed for the platform that nobody asked for. Somebody on the development team asked what happens when the enemy is too close for grenades, and they came up with this. The utility of a single shot shotgun in combat is marginal, at best, considering the other ordnance around. Further, the grenadier was just one part of the fireteam/squad, and his job was to suppress the enemy with grenade fire, not shoot point targets. If you’re shooting point targets with buckshot, those enemy farther away aren’t getting suppressed and will be point targets.

    Finally, if you’re a grenadier who’s humping a ruck in the jungle, you’re not going to take up weight with the most ineffective round produced for the weapon. You’d take HE, and maybe smoke or illumination rounds.

    The issue of close in defense was addressed by issuing grenadiers with 1911s. Then, later, the m203.


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  5. #5
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    Found some better sources. The balls were hardened lead. There was a heavier loading tried with 27 pellets but it spread the pattern too much. The flechette load was criticized as having poor penetration and ineffective. Once again the M-203 solved the problem.

  6. #6
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    I will mostly remember these loads as the inspiration for the flechette grenades in "The Forever War."

    Anyone else remember when flechette guns were in every military SF story, or at least it seemed that way?
    REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
    REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
    NO EXCEPTIONS

  7. #7
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    I used to teach people how to wander around in jungles back in the 1980's. My Sergeant Major used to be a Recon Bubba in Southeast Asia in the 1960's and 1970's. He was rather fond of Claymores and shotguns, in that order.

    He had told me that they did play with an M-79 that had been cut down to a pistol grip, and the barrel cut down to about 8 inches in length. They would screw an eyebolt into the grip, and carry it looped on a sling. They had "played" with the buckshot rounds (I clearly recall him using that word) but he personally preferred the CS round to break contact.

    He helped us set up some live-fire training lanes through jungle terrain, based on his experiences. A bunch of them were rather fiendish. We were transitioning off the 870's to the 590's in the FMF at the time. The 870's were literally shot to pieces. We were glad to get the 590's, however cumbersome they were.

    Hope that helps.

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