Coronavirus thread

[Nephrology]

I'm sure the info is out there. However, there isn't a complete list of individuals that receive social assistance from the government either. I will not oppose the issuance of a list, and my company will be on it, but I'm not sure what purpose it really serves. If we end up going down the road of "they didn't deserve it" or "they didn't need it" that just furthers the divisiveness in this country. I will assure you that in April I was confident I was absolutely going to need it. My take of the PPP money was less than what my employees and my company will pay in income tax for 2019.

Well, social services are provided via City/state/federally budgeted spending, which can be pretty easily discovered online. At least according to what I've found so far, it looks like the SBA will disclose creditors who received >$150k from the Paycheck Protection Plan, but has not done so yet. As an aside, I'm not super worried how individuals spend their $trump bux - responsibly or not, if the money went to some sort of vendor or creditor it meant revenue for someone else.

My interest is not to shame companies (and they are companies, what the hell do they care what I think?) but because I want to know if it was efficiently distributed to industries in need of the most support, and also to know what level of oversight there is for its use, and if that money is being used per the conditions of the PPP. I don't think it's controversial to say that as taxpayers, we have a right to know how our money is being spent. I wasn't thrilled about how the last bailout was spent, and I'm suspicious I won't be happy with this one either.

Treasury just released the lists for all loans under $150,000 by state.

https://home.treasury.gov/policy-iss...oan-level-data

Nice, I was looking for that. I'd seen the announcement but no link.

edit: I am scrolling through the data for my state and it doesn't really feel that informative? Maybe I am missing something, I don't usually look at stuff like this so hardly an expert here. It doesn't name the company or the amount of the loan. It does list ZIP, business type, and # of jobs retained. There is a big disclaimer PDF that comes with the .csv files that provides a lot of helpful context about the data, which unfortunately makes it even harder to interpret (i.e. listed entities are not necessarily in compliance, nor will necessarily receive loan forgiveness).

[AKDoug]

Well, social services are provided via City/state/federally budgeted spending, which can be pretty easily discovered online. At least according to what I've found so far, it looks like the SBA will disclose creditors who received >$150k from the Paycheck Protection Plan, but has not done so yet. As an aside, I'm not super worried how individuals spend their $trump bux - responsibly or not, if the money went to some sort of vendor or creditor it meant revenue for someone else.

My interest is not to shame companies (and they are companies, what the hell do they care what I think?) but because I want to know if it was efficiently distributed to industries in need of the most support, and also to know what level of oversight there is for its use, and if that money is being used per the conditions of the PPP. I don't think it's controversial to say that as taxpayers, we have a right to know how our money is being spent. I wasn't thrilled about how the last bailout was spent, and I'm suspicious I won't be happy with this one either.

You should care what they think. THOUSANDS of these companies are small businesses that keep this country going. They are owned by middle class Americans like me and staffed by loyal employees that have their boss' back when the chips are down. We are the backbone of the economy. I am a taxpayer as well, as are all my employees. It's not like the taxes we have paid for decades have been spent with oversight and proper application.

It's an absolute distrust of the media is where my worries lie. In the current environment you'll get a story like "Joe Bob's Excavation took PPP money and they didn't need it" because the media found out Joe Bob donated money to the Republican party. They won't report that in April Joe Bob was taking hourly phone calls for cancelled contracts. In a panic he applied for the PPP and kept his employees going. In May, because Joe Bob also donates heavily to local charitable causes his town rallies around him and books him for millions of dollars of work. In July he is now having a record year. He looks at that $150K in PPP money and wonders "should I just return it"? He then decides to not return it because he doesn't legally need to and instead buys a new bulldozer and hires two more people. In today's media you will not get the real story, they will tear Joe Bob down to fit their narrative.

That said, I play by the rules. I have not broken any PPP rules and have documentation that proves my expenditures. I have not laid off a single employee, and paid many of them a bunch of overtime in the period of time that documents my PPP usage. I can produce that proof in about 15 minutes of office time. I like to think that most companies that received the PPP can do so as well.

[Nephrology]

You should care what they think. THOUSANDS of these companies are small businesses that keep this country going. They are owned by middle class Americans like me and staffed by loyal employees that have their boss' back when the chips are down. We are the backbone of the economy. I am a taxpayer as well, as are all my employees. It's not like the taxes we have paid for decades have been spent with oversight and proper application.

Totally agreed on all fronts. Like I said, I have no qualms whatsoever with the idea of supporting American businesses. Absolutely in favor. I just think some form of oversight should be involved. I want businesses that are healthy, competitive and job creating to weather this crisis. What I don't want is my tax money (and your tax money) to support businesses whose applications were fraudulent or whose disbursement will be pillaged by, say, a private equity/venture capital firm before they file for bankruptcy. That kind of thing.

That said, I play by the rules. I have not broken any PPP rules and have documentation that proves my expenditures. I have not laid off a single employee, and paid many of them a bunch of overtime in the period of time that documents my PPP usage. I can produce that proof in about 15 minutes of office time. I like to think that most companies that received the PPP can do so as well.

I am sure the vast majority of businesses are just as responsible as you are - I hope nothing I said suggested otherwise. I'm worried about the ones that are fraudulent - which, at least in 2008 seemed to be the ones with the most money and influence in Washington.

[Shoresy]

I'm guessing that northwest Maine is covered by a Canadian hospital system.

I think it’s more likely that moose simply don’t get Covid.

[Joe in PNG]

But is Canada letting a buncha germy Yanks in to use their hospitals at the moment? My understanding is that the border is pretty much shut.

[Welder]

....What I don't want is my tax money (and your tax money) to support businesses whose applications were fraudulent....
I am sure the vast majority of businesses are just as responsible as you are .....

Ha ha ha ha!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

But seriously.

Snicker, snicker

There are very, very, very few businesses who aren't going to take every bit of whatever they can get. This isn't a stab at Mick, BTW. It's business. And businesses generally know where they can afford to step over the line a little or a lot, and they will. Certain things are still enforced basically by the honor system, and are totally taken advantage of. I can say this because I'm a business owner, my peers are owners, and all I have to do is listen.

My grandfather always said there's no such thing as free gov't money, there'll always be strings....sooner or later. Now that might not've been strictly true, but I've tried to live by that. I didn't get one red cent of PPP $$, even though my accountant hounded me to go after it. I don't need it, I'm surviving, and I'll be alright in the long haul.

I would guess there is just as much abuse and dishonesty in this sort of thing as there is in the welfare system. It's very rare for someone to follow the rules if they don't think there's going to be any serious enforcement. People are people, whether they're employees or employers, Democrats or Republicans. Morality and a sense of acting for the common good is, in my opinion, a thing that's vanishing into the rearview mirror in our society.

Sorry, off my soapbox. My opinons.

[Kyle Reese]

Just saw on the local news that there’s no correlation between the spread of Covid and the recent protests and riots. It’s settled!


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[ranger]

Mayor of Atlanta just announced she has COVID19 but with no symptoms. Guess she was not social distancing enough or wearing a mask at the various large group events in Atlanta recently.

[TGS]

But is Canada letting a buncha germy Yanks in to use their hospitals at the moment? My understanding is that the border is pretty much shut.

@Screwball might have an answer.

[Screwball]

@Screwball might have an answer.

In regards to the original statement about NW Maine and Canadian healthcare... fact of the matter is there really isn’t much in that unshaded area. I live in Houlton, which is at the end of I-95. I really don’t see a lot of people coming back from Canada from healthcare. Maybe once in awhile going to an eye doctor or dentist.

People from Canada coming over for healthcare... much more prevalent. Treatments for Lyme disease, VA benefits (there are quite a few US citizens living in Canada), orthodontist visits, etc. Canadian healthcare isn’t that great in this neck of the woods, and even hospitals up here (in the US) aren’t the greatest. If I need specific healthcare... I’ll go down to Portland before I go to the hospital ten minutes from my house.

The county I live in (Aroostook) is about the size of CT and RI combined, and probably covers a decent chunk of that unshaded area... the entire county had only like 25 cases. Maine, itself, is under 3,500 cases. There was a time where my old county in NJ (was at the 35ish spot in regards to COVID activity) had four times more cases than the entire state of ME. I’ve been off for the past week, so I really didn’t sit down and check stats.

Houlton had a jump of like 10 cases due to EMS crews not using protective equipment (masks, gloves). But it isn’t the end of the world. Some places got stricter with the social distancing... but most stayed openish.

In regards to the border... it is closed to non-essential travel. Really comes down to a Canadian that wants to come over and fill up their car/buy stuff at Walmart... they are being sent back (when this started, gas/groceries were considered “essential”). Those are the ones that are affected, including couples that are separated by the border. Non immigrant visas are mostly not being processed, unless it is deemed essential. Canadians have a little less restrictions, but travel is extremely low considering where is should be.

What’s essential? Commerce is... so all the foreign truck drivers are still going across the border like normal. From the last ones I’ve talked to, no restrictions crossing provinces in Canada. And I do mean no restrictions. Regular people... if you leave Canada, you self quarantine for 14 days. And they can’t go between provinces as of yet. I had a trucker that came back from Europe (forget the country), and during those 14 days... he was driving across New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Quebec. A commercial license gave him all that freedom... but couldn’t come into the US due to our restrictions. But as soon as those 14 days were up, he was sure as hell in front of me... getting his I-94W.

If a person in the US has status in Canada... they let them in. Quarantine depends on reason for their trip. Anyone in Canada with status here (US citizens, LPRs, NAIs)... they will never be turned away by us. And don’t forget your TNs... whether nurses, pharmacists, or other positions. They still come across.

For Canada... their stance is close to what ours is. If a US citizen, otherwise admissible to Canada, is heading over for healthcare, I would think they would consider it essential... but that is not my call (or do I have any say with that). Work related crossings, I believe are similar to us... at least from the one US trucker I saw two days in a row (once heading out, next one coming back in)... so he didn’t have to quarantine. When I have to travel to one of our outports thru Canada... we don’t have issues. I do get asked if I feel ok coming back, as if I’d catch COVID during an 8 hour shift.

This is still going at least until 7/22. It has been extended each month since April... so your guess is as good as mine if they will open up in a few weeks. Personally, I don’t see any real need to open it up... so I think it will stay closed at least into the fall. Might even stay closed until a vaccine is available.