Noob Questions Re: 9mm Round Selection

[Corlissimo]

I’ve recently obtained a new HK P30L and I’m currently working on shifting from .40 S&W to 9mm for EDC use. I have no issues finding FMJ ammo for training/practice but as I’ve been working on this transition, a few questions about JHP load selection have cropped up. I’ve been reading around a lot of different places and searching high and low, but I need some straight answers because I'm a little unsure of some things.

First off, I’m only looking for loads listed on DocGKR’s Self-Defense Ammo post. My questions pertain to +P ratings and bullet weights.

1. How desirable is it to run a higher pressure load (+P, +P+) over a standard pressure round?

2. Is running +P in my > 4” barrel a waste of money, or is there a tangible benefit
(flatter trajectory, barrier penetration, etc.) to be had in doing so?

3. 147gr vs. 124gr? Pros & Cons of each?

Side Note:
When shooting my .40 I lean towards 180gr over 165gr as the heavier round has a more controllable recoil impulse. This only applies to my FMJ practice ammo though. I don’t use any JHP in 165gr as I haven’t seen that weight in the brands I choose to use for SD. (Speer GD 180gr or Federal HST 180gr)

4. Do these same characteristics I’ve seen in .40 S&W translate to 9mm?

Thanks.

[JAD]

I don't have an answer but I think it's a very good question. If we accept service caliber functional equivalency -- the idea that shootability, platform, and capacity outweigh presumably minor differences in terminal performance -- then 9x19 +P wouldn't seem to make sense. Why sacrifice shootability for oomph if it makes no difference? And if something as minor as 100 fps makes a difference worth sacrificing shootability, then shouldn't we be running .40 or .45?

[TCinVA]

My criteria is somewhat unsophisticated:

1. Look at what's on Doc's list of recommendations
2. Buy whatever of those options I can find the cheapest that still has flash retardant powder

There may be some tangible benefits to the 147 grain 9mm loads in certain circumstances, but 124 grain +P loads tend to be the types of loads that work best with my sights and from what I understand they're doing a bangup job on the street.

1. How desirable is +P? Well many 9mm pistols are set up for +P or equivalent rounds. NATO 9mm ammo is considerably hotter than our typical 9mm fare here in the states. The 9mm spec here is designed to not blow up 100 year old Luger pistols. That being said, your typical 147 grain duty/carry quality round isn't exactly a shrinking violet in terms of how it's loaded. The SAAMI specs for caliber are a range...expect duty/carry ammo that's worth anything to be in the upper end of the 9mm spec even if it's not +P. While Doc may be able to intelligently describe differences in +P and standard pressure loads in his testing that would be important in some situations, I think you'll probably find that if it's on the approved list the differences are going to be fairly minor almost to the point of making it difficult to identify a tangible benefit for the average user.

2. Waste of money? I would answer that question with a question: Do you find that +P defensive ammo is more expensive than standard pressure defensive ammo? I ask because I don't recall ever having encountered that. Duty/carry ammo is more expensive because it is made with higher quality components (better quality primers, sealant, higher quality powder, nickel plated cases, taper crimping to enhance the reliability of feeding, more intricately designed/manufactured bullets, higher levels of quality control, etc) and better attention to detail which is going to necessarily cost more. A little bit more powder crammed into the case is going to make little or no difference in price.

3. 124 vs 147? From a terminal ballistics and intermediate barriers standpoint Doc is your man to ask about those specifics. Personally I know my P30 shoots well with 124 grain ammo with the Heinie sights on the pistol, and I managed to snag a bunch of 124 grain +P HST rounds cheap so I carry that.

4. While I'm sure some folks are sophisticated enough to sense a difference in the recoil impulse between 124 +P and 147 grain rounds, I never really did...but I didn't really compare bullet weights within families, either as I shot different manufacturers/loadings with the different bullet weights. I had the same preferences for heavier loads when I dabbled with .40 pistols some years ago as well, but in 9mm I've never really noticed any difference in the way it feels to run them in the gun. The most difference I feel is the difference between running bulk 9mm ammo and duty/carry ammo in general as the duty/carry stuff is zippier.

[TGS]

1. How desirable is it to run a higher pressure load (+P, +P+) over a standard pressure round?

As desirable as you want it to be. There's no objective reason to do so. As long as it makes Doc's list, if it makes you warm and fuzzy, go for it.

2.Is running +P in my > 4” barrel a waste of money, or is there a tangible benefit
(flatter trajectory, barrier penetration, etc.) to be had in doing so?

Not a waste of money IMO, but to my knowledge there's nothing objective or solid to say it's beneficial.

3. 147gr vs. 124gr? Pros & Cons of each?

147gr loses less velocity with shorter barrels than a 124gr bullet. Also, theoretically a heavier object with greater sectional density will suffer less deflection and loose less inertia than lighter/lower SD rounds. Do either of these actually mean a real life difference between 124gr and 147gr 9mm? With modern bullet constructions, most likely not...after all, a grain is 1/7000th of a pound. We're talking a miniscule difference in weight between a 124 and 147. As long as we're talking bullets that make Doc's list, my preference is for 147 just because it gives me the warm and fuzzy of having a heavy to caliber SD. I'm also a huge fan of 6.5 rifle bullets and think the 6.5 Grendel is god's gift to the AR and anyone who says otherwise should be deemed a heretic and burn for eternity.......so that's just my preference.

Overall, my philosophy is:

1) Pick something off Doc's list.
2) After you've narrowed it down to Doc's list, pick whatever gives you a warm and fuzzy. They're all going to do pretty much the same thing, and any differences are academic at best.

[DanH]

anything off of the list should be adequate for SD. That said, some guns are particular about what loads they shoot accurately and the recoil impulse may be different from one load to another as well. IMO try as many of them as you can and select the one that you like best based on any criteria you wish to use. Whether that is accuracy, how it feels, or if you can get one cheaper than another, the choice is yours.

Some people also like to choose a SD load that matches their preferred training round as closely as possible in recoil impulse and POA/POI. Personally, I like this on the theory that training should be as close as realistic as possible in a range setting.

[Corlissimo]

Some people also like to choose a SD load that matches their preferred training round as closely as possible in recoil impulse and POA/POI. Personally, I like this on the theory that training should be as close as realistic as possible in a range setting.

This is exactly what I do with my .40 ammo selection. Why introduce uneccessary variables into my training/SD shooting? ...Not that I've had to do any shooting in SD.

[Corlissimo]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Really helps me to settle down a bit and put some of these noob issues to bed. To save space, and preserve readability, I'll reply to all below.

Why sacrifice shootability for oomph if it makes no difference? And if something as minor as 100 fps makes a difference worth sacrificing shootability, then shouldn't we be running .40 or .45?

That's what I'm getting at. Since 9mm is a new-to-me round, I'm trying to sort through everything about as best I can. These replies, and the ones below are very helpful in that regard.

My criteria is somewhat unsophisticated:

1. Look at what's on Doc's list of recommendations
2. Buy whatever of those options I can find the cheapest that still has flash retardant powder

...While Doc may be able to intelligently describe differences in +P and standard pressure loads in his testing that would be important in some situations, I think you'll probably find that if it's on the approved list the differences are going to be fairly minor almost to the point of making it difficult to identify a tangible benefit for the average user.

Agreed. Makes perfect sense.
Additional question: How do you know which ones have flash retardant powder?
I only found this characteristic in my .40 rounds via low/no light shooting.

2. Waste of money? I would answer that question with a question: Do you find that +P defensive ammo is more expensive than standard pressure defensive ammo?

Good point. Truthfully, I have only just started to look for a defensive round so I haven't really priced anything. My casual observations are that you are correct -- there really is no appreciable difference, if any, in price between +P and standard pressure rounds.

Besides, I'm looking for a defensive round, so price will not be the highest item on the priorities list. Right now though, I'm only looking to purchase a 50rd box, or three, at a time to verify reliability in my gun. Once I've run 100-200 flawless rounds of a given type through my P30L then I'll call that good enough and order bulk. The more mfg's/loads I can prove run well, the better my shopping selection will be down the road. I'm just starting out on this road though.

As long as we're talking bullets that make Doc's list, my preference is for 147 just because it gives me the warm and fuzzy of having a heavy to caliber SD. I'm also a huge fan of 6.5 rifle bullets and think the 6.5 Grendel is god's gift to the AR and anyone who says otherwise should be deemed a heretic and burn for eternity.......so that's just my preference.

LOL! Love that Grendel reference!

Yep, I prefer heavier rounds too. From the data Doc posted, the terminal ballistics between 124gr & 147gr are so similar that it's almost pointless to worry about it. That leaves the concept that a heavier round will tend to deflect less. I like that, and always will... unless there is some data that proves the opposite.

[ToddG]

One other benefit of +p ammo is that it provides greater slide velocity which can make a difference in terms of reliability under adverse conditions. A good friend of mine used to run standard pressure practice ammo but +p+ (9BPLE) or +p (124gr +p Gold Dot) duty ammo in his department's guns. When the guns got too dirty, dry, or otherwise hampered to run the practice ammo he'd load up a few mags of the higher pressure stuff and they would fire without missing a beat.

Having said that, I'm also a confessed member of the Church of Speed. All else being equal -- meaning a round that has successfully received DocGKR's stamp of approval -- I'm going to opt for higher velocity. There may be no scientific evidence that it makes a difference, but I believe in the voodoo. Part of that is probably because I started my shooting career during the era when 147gr 9mm failures to stop were commonplace. Rationally I realize that a number of 147gr JHPs these days have been extremely successful but I just can't quite wrap my head around it...

[jetfire]

I pretty much buy either Winchester Ranger 147 grain or Federal HST 147s when I can get them. I really can feel a difference in recoil impulse between the 124 +P stuff and the 147 if I shoot them back to back, and I just prefer the 147.

[Corlissimo]

One other benefit of +p ammo is that it provides greater slide velocity which can make a difference in terms of reliability under adverse conditions. A good friend of mine used to run standard pressure practice ammo but +p+ (9BPLE) or +p (124gr +p Gold Dot) duty ammo in his department's guns. When the guns got too dirty, dry, or otherwise hampered to run the practice ammo he'd load up a few mags of the higher pressure stuff and they would fire without missing a beat.

Having said that, I'm also a confessed member of the Church of Speed. All else being equal -- meaning a round that has successfully received DocGKR's stamp of approval -- I'm going to opt for higher velocity. There may be no scientific evidence that it makes a difference, but I believe in the voodoo. Part of that is probably because I started my shooting career during the era when 147gr 9mm failures to stop were commonplace. Rationally I realize that a number of 147gr JHPs these days have been extremely successful but I just can't quite wrap my head around it...

Hadn't thought about the slide velocity aspect. That also makes sense, especially for a carry gun that you might need to count on to save your bacon. Thanks Todd!

In a quick search, it seems like no 147gr loads are available in anything but standard pressure, at least for JHPs... and at least for anything on Doc's list. Guess that leaves 124gr if I am looking for a JHP +P round. I'm also presuming that 147gr NATO is strictly FMJ (hence the "NATO" designation) correct?