Has the era of RDS Handguns fully arrived?

[ASH556]

I "grew up" in a rifle-centric shooting environment. It was a fantastic experience working in a small NFA-centric shop with co-workers who were all BTDT MIL or LEO guys. I was a deviant in 2001 when I put an Aimpoint Comp M2 on my carbine. Irons where rugged and reliable and all one needed for a "fighting carbine." So of course I stripped it all down and went "KISS." Well, we all know how that went. For me the lightbulb moment was when I attended a local carbine match with my iron-sighted "KISS" carbine and got thoroughly schooled by all but the worst shooters. I quit kicking against the goads and quickly reconfigured my setup to include an Aimpoint. An RDS equipped carbine is now considered the most basic level of sighting equipment. For a few years afterward I would practice some with irons and some with dot. At this point (and for probably the last decade) I've only shot irons on a carbine to sight in a set of backups. I think the commonality and performance gains along with the durability of current carbine RDS designs from companies such as Aimpoint are beyond dispute.

I'm wondering where we fall on that same journey now with RDS equipped handguns. My primary carry and training pistols are RDS equipped. I've taken a Gabe glass with an RDS equpped pistol. I'm in, I get it. That said, I still have a couple iron-sighted pistols as well.

Now, a proficient shooter can certainly take an iron sighted carbine and still do good work with it. But I doubt there's a situation in which that would be anyone's preference.

Are we at the same place with dots on pistols? Like, sure you could use an iron-sighted pistol, but why would you? Or is it still more evenly split? And are there reasons why irons on pistols will always make more sense and therefore keep them relevant vs irons on a rifle?

[JCN]

Ken Hackathorn says no.

To some, that day will never arrive as long as they’re still breathing IMO.

As @HCM has documented in the agency discussion thread, there are real training and learning benefits to starting on a dot rather than irons, something competition people have known to be true for a little while.

When you have a technology that helps learning and the only downside is durability (often mitigates with BUIS, which also helps have a redundant sighting system), anyone holding out is just hurting themselves or just stubborn…


My $0.02 as a professional student of things.

[HCM]

I "grew up" in a rifle-centric shooting environment. It was a fantastic experience working in a small NFA-centric shop with co-workers who were all BTDT MIL or LEO guys. I was a deviant in 2001 when I put an Aimpoint Comp M2 on my carbine. Irons where rugged and reliable and all one needed for a "fighting carbine." So of course I stripped it all down and went "KISS." Well, we all know how that went. For me the lightbulb moment was when I attended a local carbine match with my iron-sighted "KISS" carbine and got thoroughly schooled by all but the worst shooters. I quit kicking against the goads and quickly reconfigured my setup to include an Aimpoint. An RDS equipped carbine is now considered the most basic level of sighting equipment. For a few years afterward I would practice some with irons and some with dot. At this point (and for probably the last decade) I've only shot irons on a carbine to sight in a set of backups. I think the commonality and performance gains along with the durability of current carbine RDS designs from companies such as Aimpoint are beyond dispute.

I'm wondering where we fall on that same journey now with RDS equipped handguns. My primary carry and training pistols are RDS equipped. I've taken a Gabe glass with an RDS equpped pistol. I'm in, I get it. That said, I still have a couple iron-sighted pistols as well.

Now, a proficient shooter can certainly take an iron sighted carbine and still do good work with it. But I doubt there's a situation in which that would be anyone's preference.

Are we at the same place with dots on pistols? Like, sure you could use an iron-sighted pistol, but why would you? Or is it still more evenly split? And are there reasons why irons on pistols will always make more sense and therefore keep them relevant vs irons on a rifle?

As someone who put an Ultradot RDS on the carry handle of my AR in 1992 and a Comp M on an M1A in 1998 I’d say you were late to the party. The Army adopted the Comp M in 2000 though actually fielding them was slow due to the Clinton military budget doldrums.

We didn’t get to where we are now with RDS on carbines overnight. It took 30 years, starting slow and gradually accelerating.

By comparison pistol RDS are about halfway through that same arc. So pistol RDS are about where carbine RDS were in 2005-2007.

The benefits of starting new shooters on optics @JCN mentioned are real and are a thing with both carbines and pistols.

[Trooper224]

My old agency has been using RDS on rifles since 2007. They will shortly be adopting them on pistols agency wide.

[4RNR]

Probably has but I'm going to say it's 50/50. Many don't have any rds and many have some but nothing they carry or train with.

I have a few rds rifles but still rely 100% on irons for handguns. I don't care who's faster in competition. What are the chances of me having to defend myself against some master competition champion?

I'm perfectly happy being last place in competitions every time. My concern is only me against myself.
Can I be faster with a rds handgun? Yea probably. Will it matter in self defense? Probably not. So I'm happy to spend the rds money on ammo for practice.

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[JCN]

The benefits of starting new shooters on optics @JCN mentioned are real and are a thing with both carbines and pistols.

Which is my big beef when civilian trainers insist on training new students on irons.

It’s one thing to prefer them yourself due to not wanting to train up.

But to recommend something to others that stunts their progression out of personal ego… that’s not cool in my book.

Glad the data is out there in real academy training now to refute the “opinions” of some people.

I was reading a book from a famous trainer here… except I didn’t realize it was from 1981 when I bought it.

It’s interesting how the “gospel” of the day didn’t age so well.

If you didn’t adapt and advance with technology, you’re living in a different era. While nice for nostalgia and historical anecdotes, real science of training marches on.

[WobblyPossum]

I don’t think we’re there yet simply because nothing with pistol-mounted optics has been standardized regarding actually mounting them onto pistols. We’ve got numerous top-down-screw style mounting footprints (RMR, Delta Point, Romeo, etc). There are two different horizontal screw/clamp rail style (ACRO and 509T). There are multiple footprints for the mini-optics like the Shield RMSc and Trijicon RMRcc. Every time someone comes out with a new optic, it seems like they come out with a proprietary footprint for it. Every firearm manufacturer seems to have their own optics-ready cut and plate system too. Until you can buy any handgun and any optic and securely attach them together with whatever came in their respective boxes, the way you can with pretty much any rifle with a 1913 style rail and pretty much any optic that comes with a 1913 compatible mount, we won’t be at the point where pistol-mounted optics are ubiquitous. I just want every slide to come from the factory machined for an ACRO-style footprint and for every optic to come from the factory with an ACRO-style mounting system.

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve been dipping my whole foot in the RDS water, but I hope I never get to the point where I’m not proficient with and don’t enjoy shooting irons. But I do think we are at the point where a new shooter can come up with a dot and never need to develop proficiency with irons.

[HCM]

Probably has but I'm going to say it's 50/50. Many don't have any rds and many have some but nothing they carry or train with.

I have a few rds rifles but still rely 100% on irons for handguns. I don't care who's faster in competition. What are the chances of me having to defend myself against some master competition champion?

I'm perfectly happy being last place in competitions every time. My concern is only me against myself.
Can I be faster with a rds handgun? Yea probably. Will it matter in self defense? Probably not. So I'm happy to spend the rds money on ammo for practice.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

If good enough us good enough for you so be it but deriding being faster and /or more accurate is naive at best.

[HCM]

I’ve been dipping my whole foot in the RDS water, but I hope I never get to the point where I’m not proficient with and don’t enjoy shooting irons. But I do think we are at the point where a new shooter can come up with a dot and never need to develop proficiency with irons.

No one has suggested new shooters not learning irons.

But there Steve, how are quantifiable advantages to learning fundamentals with optics and adding irons as an intermediate skill.