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Thread: Something to keep an eye out for: Hydra-Shok Deep .380

  1. #101
    Here are a couple photos to show the length difference of the LCP II and the LCP Max.



  2. #102
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    Why does the J hold an edge?
    The advantages have been expounded upon by people a lot more experienced than me, folks like DB. But off the top of my head...

    - The Centennial profile is much better suited to snag-free draws, particularly from a pocket where the rear corner of a semiauto often hangs up
    - The most dummy-proof, ND-proof trigger available
    -More reliable with built-up pocket grunge
    - Better ballistics than .380
    - Will not go out of battery if push into an opponent
    - Cannot be limp-wristed

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by GearFondler View Post
    The advantages have been expounded upon by people a lot more experienced than me, folks like DB. But off the top of my head...

    - The Centennial profile is much better suited to snag-free draws, particularly from a pocket where the rear corner of a semiauto often hangs up
    - The most dummy-proof, ND-proof trigger available
    -More reliable with built-up pocket grunge
    - Better ballistics than .380
    - Will not go out of battery if push into an opponent
    - Cannot be limp-wristed
    All stuff that can likely be worked around with practice. And 38 can be pretty marginal if FBI ballistic requirements are applied.

    If reliability is your goal (maybe that's ultimately the absolute requirement for a defensive handgun) then the LCR/J/Colt Agent likely wins. But if you want a combination of factors such as small size with some additional ammo, the LCP/238/938/G42 might be a better choice.

    I think historically the private citizen self-defense scenario has always been a mugger(s) in a dark alley. In this scenario the 5 or 6 shot revo is likely more than enough. Now we have a modern era where active shooters and other deranged idiots seem to be the norm. Is your J frame enough gun for a defensive shooting that may involve some asshole(s) armed with a rifle or someone how's intent on killing rather than taking your wallet?

    Why you're in the alley in the first place (buying drugs and/or soliciting a prostitute) is another matter of discussion....[emoji38]

    Related to ammo performance vs small size and capacity it might be a good idea to explore the 327 Federal Magnum.

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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    All stuff that can likely be worked around with practice. And 38 can be pretty marginal if FBI ballistic requirements are applied.

    If reliability is your goal (maybe that's ultimately the absolute requirement for a defensive handgun) then the LCR/J/Colt Agent likely wins. But if you want a combination of factors such as small size with some additional ammo, the LCP/238/938/G42 might be a better choice.

    I think historically the private citizen self-defense scenario has always been a mugger(s) in a dark alley. In this scenario the 5 or 6 shot revo is likely more than enough. Now we have a modern era where active shooters and other deranged idiots seem to be the norm. Is your J frame enough gun for a defensive shooting that may involve some asshole(s) armed with a rifle or someone how's intent on killing rather than taking your wallet?

    Why you're in the alley in the first place (buying drugs and/or soliciting a prostitute) is another matter of discussion....[emoji38]

    Related to ammo performance vs small size and capacity it might be a good idea to explore the 327 Federal Magnum.

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    I agree with your statement that "38 can be pretty marginal", but it also can be pretty impressive, depending on which .38 load you are talking about. I feel that this is because of the fact that revolver bullet designs are not restricted by bullet profiles which will move smoothly up a feed ramp, so there are a lot more options available to the ammunition designer, and these options have the potential to give better performance than what you would see from autoloading bullets of similar diameter/mass/velocity. I think the best two examples of this are standard low velocity wadcutters and the Federal 130gr HST.

    Plenty has been said on this forum about wadcutters, but check out these tests of the 130 HST:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGjNQ_hhIQ

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/t...-38-special-p/

    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

    The first test uses ballistics gel, while the luckygunner test uses clear gel. It seems to me this load penetrates nearly as well as 9mm, and expands just as much as the best 9mm loads. The only thing you give up is penetration through intermediate barriers, and (I assume) ability to maintain that expansion at longer ranges as the bullet slows down. There is no load that performs like this in the .380, and this is why I feel much better armed with 5 rounds of .38 than 7 rounds of .380, particularly knowing a typical civilian self-defense situation isn't likely to involve more than 5 rounds anyway.

    To your second point, the idea of a low odds but very high stakes encounter with an active shooter or similarly well armed adversary, I would say that carrying either an LCR or an LCPII would be leaving you severely underarmed. I think we can all agree that it is best to carry at least a compact service pistol whenever possible to give you the best odds of solving whatever problem you face. Snub nosed .38's and pocket automatics are for those times you just can't/wont carry a bigger/better weapon for whatever reason.
    Last edited by TicTacticalTimmy; 07-18-2021 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by TicTacticalTimmy View Post
    I agree with your statement that "38 can be pretty marginal", but it also can be pretty impressive, depending on which .38 load you are talking about. I feel that this is because of the fact that revolver bullet designs are not restricted by bullet profiles which will move smoothly up a feed ramp, so there are a lot more options available to the ammunition designer, and these options have the potential to give better performance than what you would see from autoloading bullets of similar diameter/mass/velocity. I think the best two examples of this are standard low velocity wadcutters and the Federal 130gr HST.

    Plenty has been said on this forum about wadcutters, but check out these tests of the 130 HST:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGjNQ_hhIQ

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/t...-38-special-p/

    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

    The first test uses ballistics gel, while the luckygunner test uses clear gel. It seems to me this load penetrates nearly as well as 9mm, and expands just as much as the best 9mm loads. The only thing you give up is penetration through intermediate barriers, and (I assume) ability to maintain that expansion at longer ranges as the bullet slows down. There is no load that performs like this in the .380, and this is why I feel much better armed with 5 rounds of .38 than 7 rounds of .380, particularly knowing a typical civilian self-defense situation isn't likely to involve more than 5 rounds anyway.

    To your second point, the idea of a low odds but very high stakes encounter with an active shooter or similarly well armed adversary, I would say that carrying either an LCR or an LCPII would be leaving you severely underarmed. I think we can all agree that it is best to carry at least a compact service pistol whenever possible to give you the best odds of solving whatever problem you face. Snub nosed .38's and pocket automatics are for those times you just can't/wont carry a bigger/better weapon for whatever reason.
    I note in the LCP Max thread that the P365 is likely the better choice based on size vs possible terminal performance.

    Here is more gel info:

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...ial-cartridge/

    Note compared to 357 Magnum:

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...mag-cartridge/

    And 32 H&R and 327 FM:

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...ed-32-magnums/



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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    Related to ammo performance vs small size and capacity it might be a good idea to explore the 327 Federal Magnum.
    This is an intriguing round. Have you ever shot one? If so, how would you describe the recoil say compared to +P. 38 special or .357 magnum? Particularly in a lightweight J frame.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    This is an intriguing round. Have you ever shot one? If so, how would you describe the recoil say compared to +P. 38 special or .357 magnum? Particularly in a lightweight J frame.
    Recoil is snappy but not severe. More than anything in .38 but not as bad as some .357.

    Muzzle blast is pretty loud. Very much a high pitched crack.

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  8. #108
    All this stuff reminds me that the choice of 380 quite often boils down to two categories. One is a good JHP that readily expands but offers shallow penetration. The second is a non-expanding bullet that offers good (aka excessive) penetration.

    The HSD may be a proper combination for 380 even if the amount of expansion is more or less academic. Too bad it isn't readily available. I'd like to try some through my LCP Max.

    Regarding the non-expanding option; I recall reading a review of the Buffalo Bore 100gr cast lead bullet where a Marine had used a 380 against an enemy combatant in Iraq. The bullet worked well and saved the Marine's life. Anyone else recall this story? I swear it was posted on the BB website but I can find it now.

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  9. #109
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    This is an intriguing round. Have you ever shot one? If so, how would you describe the recoil say compared to +P. 38 special or .357 magnum? Particularly in a lightweight J frame.
    I've not shot .327 in anything but my Single-Seven. Recoil is, as Tokarev say, snappy. Muzzle blast is impressive. My guess is that in a J-frame it would be similar to the +P .38 I carry in my 442.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    My guess is that in a J-frame it would be similar to the +P .38 I carry in my 442.
    I'd say more akin to a 125gr .357 Magnum load fired from a snubby. Maybe not as hard on the wrist. But whatever it lacks in recoil it makes up for in BANG!

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    Last edited by Tokarev; 07-20-2021 at 04:37 PM.

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