Our new and improved Iraq discussion thread!

[critter]

Its ****ing Iran.

That *is* funny, but I don't really buy that as an argument. While perhaps not on par with their Ruskie buddies, I doubt their military training/competence is at the level of playing little green army men in the back yard either.

[Wake27]

That *is* funny, but I don't really buy that as an argument. While perhaps not on par with their Ruskie buddies, I doubt their military training/competence is at the level of playing little green army men in the back yard either.

I assume you've never served in our military, have you?

[critter]

That's about my untrained hypothesis also.

A poorly trained and motivated conscript crew figures, "If we allow a US aircraft through, we'll definitely be beheaded. If we shoot down a non-combatant aircraft, we might be beheaded..."

or "the rebel alliance is traveling under the guise of Canadian citizenship. Do not let them escape with the Death Star plans!"

heh...

[critter]

I assume you've never served in our military, have you?

Nope. Military family, slightly bowed leg kept me as the only male in about five generations unable to serve. And that proves your point how?

[Wake27]

Nope. Military family, slightly bowed leg kept me as the only male in about five generations unable to serve. And that proves your point how?

Because you have too much faith to have been in.


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[critter]

Between a station and between an individual battery are quite different things. Military comms are typically one level at a time. The bottom rung can only top to the rung above it directly. That rung can talk one up and talk one down. Platoon level talks to Company level but not to Battalion level, for example.

And, again, there was no emergency broadcast from the plane. Most likely it's comms were damaged by the first strike.

All of which leaves unanswered the most basic question: Why the need to down a plane to affect an arrest? Why not at passport control, the boarding gate, any host of alternatives that would be both easier, cheaper, and quieter? It presumes that they couldn't get "him" prior to boarding but were ready with authorization and ability to destroy a civilian airliner between that point in time and shortly after take off. That's way more complicated then poorly trained jumpy crew fires at blip on screen, blip turns out to not be the blip they were looking for.

Ok, why would they necessarily be poorly trained and subsequently stationed/assigned to a location adjacent to highly congested civilian air traffic? How could the fact that the airport is operating as usual NOT have been communicated to the military? Perhaps Wake27 is correct and I am lending too much credit where it isn't warranted, but that seems an unbelievable catastrophic goof-up.

[BehindBlueI's]

How could the fact that the airport is operating as usual NOT have been communicated to the military?

Wait, you think the AA battery didn't realize the airport was operating as usual so they just shot at something that was moving? Do you think that was the only, or even the first, civilian flight to take off from the airport that day?

[critter]

Wait, you think the AA battery didn't realize the airport was operating as usual so they just shot at something that was moving? Do you think that was the only, or even the first, civilian flight to take off from the airport that day?

um, no. I think it's probable that they knew they were targeting a civilian aircraft, and that it's probable that they'll be beheaded or more likely shot as scapegoats if they were ordered to do so.

Again, perhaps I'm giving more credit for competence than warranted, but were this an actual accident, the blunder defies logic for reasons to which you allude in the quote above.

[BehindBlueI's]

um, no. I think it's probable that they knew they were targeting a civilian aircraft, and that it's probable that they'll be beheaded or more likely shot as scapegoats if they were ordered to do so.

Again, perhaps I'm giving more credit for competence than warranted, but were this an actual accident, the blunder defies logic for reasons to which you allude in the quote above.

Then I guess I don't get this: "How could the fact that the airport is operating as usual NOT have been communicated to the military?" as an objection. Of course they knew the airport was operating as normal. What's that got to do with a foul up in target identification?

Part of an AA operator's job is sorting friendly from enemy from neutral. That's hard. Take a look at the required test scores to qualify to attend the training in the US Army:

Example: AIR DEFENSE BATTLE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM OPERATOR (14G)
ASVAB requirements: General Technical (GT): 95, Mechanical Maintenance (MM): 96

Vs, say, INFANTRYMAN (11B) or my dumb ass COMBAT ENGINEER (12B)
ASVAB requirement: Combat (CO): 87

And I've met a few folks who washed out because they couldn't pass the tests and got recycled into another MOS. I don't have any exact numbers, but it would appear washout rates are fairly high, and that's with a professional volunteer army selected as a meritocracy.

I've never worked with Iranian military (obviously), but my exposure to other middle eastern military members has not lead me to believe they have, or even value, high levels of competency. They are certainly not a meritocracy, especially in leadership roles.

[TGS]

I've never worked with Iranian military (obviously), but my exposure to other middle eastern military members has not lead me to believe they have, or even value, high levels of competency. They are certainly not a meritocracy, especially in leadership roles.

Truest words I've read all month.