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Thread: Fort Scott Munitions TUI

  1. #21
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    There's also a tendency for smaller ammo makers to attempt to get market share for themselves by bringing out some flavor of Super Kewl Magic Bullet.

    Often sold with wildly exaggerated claims of effectiveness (because new magic!), and even the occasional dark hint about use by Sooper Seekrit Skwirrel Black Ops Ninjas.
    This is often a clue: any ammo with either above is usually overpriced Derp.

    ^This^
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  2. #22
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad0011 View Post
    Graham at Downtown Tactical, Springfield, Mo

    He needs to, as Uncle Pat used to say "read more, post less"

    He is spouting bullshit.

    The ammo in question is glorified ball ammo. Period. It doesn't nothing special.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad0011 View Post
    Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
    Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad0011 View Post
    Graham at Downtown Tactical, Springfield, Mo
    He is significantly misinformed and you’d be better off doing the opposite of whatever he tells you to do.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter the Schwartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    The ammo in question is expensive glorified ball ammo.
    FIFY.

    At $1.15 per round according to the manufacturer's website, anyone is simply better off buying HSTs which can be found for 9mm for about 70% of the cost here: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/9mm-...ammo-c-51.aspx
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 03-24-2020 at 10:52 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

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  5. #25
    Member PNWTO's Avatar
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    “Teaching people a large number of sword techniques is turning the way into a business of selling goods, making beginners believe that there is something profound in their training by impressing them with a variety of techniques. This attitude toward strategy must be avoided, because thinking that there is a variety of ways of cutting a man down is evidence of a disturbed mind. In the world, different ways of cutting a man down do not exist.” - Musashi
    Stick with something proven and read Doc’s stickies, especially the mindset pieces. Get the cheapest ammo you can find in the largest quantity that meets your needs. At the risk of piling on, a majority of both LGS employees and servicemembers don’t have the resume to talk about ballistics.
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

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  6. #26
    Site Supporter LtDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post
    FIFY.

    At $1.15 per round according to the manufacturer's website, anyone is simply better off buying HSTs which can be found for 9mm for about 70% of the cost here: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/9mm-...ammo-c-51.aspx
    Well, if Harrell’s video can be believed, it appears to work well in defeating soft body armor. If you needed that capability, $1.15 a round would not be unreasonable. I’ll stick with HST or Gold Dots.
    The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
    disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter the Schwartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDave View Post
    Well, if Harrell’s video can be believed, it appears to work well in defeating soft body armor. If you needed that capability, $1.15 a round would not be unreasonable.
    Those are mighty big ''if''s.

    While encountering an armored threat is certainly not impossible for non-LE carriers, it is a relatively improbable event—so I question the value of this particular product. Perhaps if one finds themselves in some third-world hell hole over-run with armored death-squads it might be of value.

    In the more probable scenarios facing carriers here in the US, it is still just really expensive FMJ and due to its very streamlined, almost conical nose profile, permanent tissue damage produced by the TUI is likely to be slightly less than that seen with the underwhelming FMJRN in any caliber. Not much of ''selling point'' in my opinion....

    As for Harrell's videos, I have absolutely no confidence in their validity. They fail when considered against even the slightest scientific rigor and, at their best, are merely entertaining.

    While the Fort Scott 9mm TUI rounds did penetrate the soft armor he used, the test media Mr. Harrell uses is, well, valueless.

    1.) While the ribs in the plastic packages was at some point living tissue, it does not correctly model living tissue. During its processing, it has been 1.) drained of blood, 2.) aged over a certain time period to allow certain enzymatic and bacterial processes to partially degrade the strength of the muscle fibers making it more tender (which means that its elastic strength has been diminished by some unknown quantity), and, 3.) may have been frozen—Heaven knows how many times—which also further degrades the strength of the muscle fibers making it up. As a result, because of these unknown factors as well as the degradation of the tissue itself, it is neither a valid nor reliable predictor of terminal ballistic performance.

    2.) Harrell's use of citrus fruits as a surrogate for pulmonary tissues is ridiculous. Sometimes he uses oranges, other times he uses grapefruit. I am aware of no research that supports the use of various citrus fruits as surrogates for human soft tissues (of any type) and I'll bet that neither does Mr. Harrell.

    3.) Finally, Mr. Harrell provides no documentation as to the condition of the soft body armor he is using in his test. For all we know, it could be brand new or it could be an older, highly-stressed, out-of-date product that he scrounged just for his video. Given the low-dollar production value typical of Mr. Harrell's videos, I am inclined to suspect that it is more likely the latter than the former. Either way, we have no idea what he used, its condition or its test-worthiness. I noticed that both of the test samples looked pretty 'worn'.

    Quote Originally Posted by LtDave View Post
    I’ll stick with HST or Gold Dots.
    Copy that.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection. www.quantitativeammunitionselection.com

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDave View Post
    Well, if Harrell’s video can be believed, it appears to work well in defeating soft body armor. If you needed that capability, $1.15 a round would not be unreasonable. I’ll stick with HST or Gold Dots.
    In many of Harrell's videos, you can see the label of the armor facing the camera, the one that says "This side towards body." Armor is constructed to function in a directional manner, with a strike face and back face. Shooting a piece of armor backwards from the way it is intended will lead to poor results.

  9. #29
    Pizzagun Dilettante Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Unless one is doing it for pure kewl factor, shooting fruit & veggies for serious ballistic purposes is just derp.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
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  10. #30
    Site Supporter the Schwartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    In many of Harrell's videos, you can see the label of the armor facing the camera, the one that says "This side towards body." Armor is constructed to function in a directional manner, with a strike face and back face. Shooting a piece of armor backwards from the way it is intended will lead to poor results.
    Great eyes! You win the Highest Attention to Detail Award! I've never bothered examining Harrell's videos to the same degree as you simply because I find his work to be.....well....inane and extremely tedious. Your point is very well-taken. I'd have missed his failure to correctly orient the soft armor test panels if you hadn't mentioned that. That's another point that discredits the validity of these videos. Thanks.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection. www.quantitativeammunitionselection.com

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