Our big, fun Iraq discussion thread

[willie]

In the inner city, if you let somebody punk you out, then everybody else jumps on you. The same is true in jails and prisons. You must be willing to fight even if you know you will lose. If you will fight, bullies will pick on somebody else. That's the way I see our situation.

I viewed Clinton and Obama in a most unfavorable light. I made the worst assumptions about both men. I had less than zero respect for them. Stephanie may view Trump in this manner. If she does, then I understand her position which may be bias--just like I had for the other two.

[0ddl0t]

How so?

You're alleging that if we stop fighting people halfway around the world who don't want us there that they will continue to attack us. I submit that if we vacate lands that aren't ours, those same people won't be that motivated to attack us. Even if they find it morally repugnant that our president pays porn stars to sleep with him, they'll be too busy fighting amongst each other to pay us any mind.

In the inner city, if you let somebody punk you out, then everybody else jumps on you. The same is true in jails and prisons. You must be willing to fight even if you know you will lose. If you will fight, bullies will pick on somebody else. That's the way I see our situation.

Sure, except it isn't our inner city and we don't need to be there in the first place.

[Joe in PNG]

Historically, if a Country A sends someone into Country B to lead an armed resistance against the government of Country B, Country B is perfectly in it's rights to execute that person.

In fact, sending that guy has historically been a cause for Country B to declare war.

So, why are people still defending Iran in this? I honestly want to know actual reasons besides "Orange Man BAD!".

[Borderland]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...out-the-region

Idle speculation, but what if Soleimani was planning to take over the US Embassy like in ‘79? Can you imagine the propaganda impact of Americans being tried and executed by some Iraqi puppet tribunal?

No. That was pretty hard to watch.

Embassy had to be protected. Trump made the right call. Setting around with your thumb up your ass waiting for some Iranian field commander to put together a plan to launch a rocket attack and breach the compound is just plain stupid. If you have the intel you need to act on it. He is/was a GD Iranian commander for christs sake. I'm guessing here but I think somebody in the Iranian gov't passed some intel to the US. He probably had his departure compromised and they followed it to Baghdad. Whoever got off of that aircraft was DOA.

[Wake27]

Iran is not Iraq. The Iranian military is commanded by competent officers and leadership, with enough quality equipment to pose a tactical problem if used well. The intel and C&C advantages we enjoyed in Desert Storm don’t apply here, which means an Iran war will not be a pushover conflict. We’d win, but at a painful cost.

Yeah no. The biggest thing Iran has going for them is that they’re already very well versed in guerrilla warfare. Their military is not very sophisticated and competent is a bold word for their leadership, but they have done a good job at adapting the resources and equipment they do have to be used in asymmetric means. Combine that with weak political resolve and a potentially high number of still brainwashed Iranians all united against a foreign invader and it could be bad, but they’re not Russia.


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[BehindBlueI's]

You're alleging that if we stop fighting people halfway around the world who don't want us there that they will continue to attack us. I submit that if we vacate lands that aren't ours, those same people won't be that motivated to attack us.

As I'm sure you recall, this was in response to you asking why Osama Bin Laden hated us. I invite you to read his own words about why. You'll note they don't match your theory of how the world works. Who did we "occupy" that lead to 9/11? Saudi Arabia? I'm no fan of Saudi, but we don't occupy them, we are there as allies. I know you see no value in allies from your previous posts, nor do you see any value in protecting our world standing. You see no value in promoting our culture or protecting our economic interests. Even a cursory glance at history should show you that a civilization who takes that path is declining or extinct.

You apparently think we are the root of the issues. That if we'd just stay home everyone else would, too. I see no evidence of that. We are the "them" in the "us vs them" recruiting and power struggles of much of the world's strong men, from Africa, the Mid-East, or Asia. We are a threat to them simply by existing, as I've already explained. We "occupy" their lands via our cultural and economic influence and via support for our allies. So, again I ask what of that you're willing to sacrifice to keep the bad men at bay?

[GardoneVT]

Hear, hear. 100%.

GardoneVT has a hard-on for them because they bought some top end AA missile systems from Russia a few years ago, and completely forgets the rest of their military is 70s and 80s grade tech in dilapidated condition due to sanctions and the inability of their economy to replace such or successfully integrate what tech they can buy into their old ass shit.

As opposed to the technological advantages we enjoyed in Desert Storm not being a factor, we would enjoy even more of a technological superiority. It wouldn't be 1990s America vs 1990s Soviet tech......it'd be 2020 America vs 1990s Soviet Tech (for the most part).

I dont give a shit about their S300s,and neither does the USAF.

That being said, the Iranians have been able to maintain their 1970s and 80s stock to a functional level thanks to covert arms deals. Just because their assets are old doesn't make them useless, nor does our technolgical advances equal automatic victory. Public relations aside Desert Storm wasn't a walkover, nor was OIF. Invading Iran won't be either.

And why did OBL dislike the US again?


But putting that aside, what makes you think today is any different from 1992? We're still not willing to level a city or perpetuate widespread genocide to win, so all we're doing is delaying the date of our inevitable loss and, in the process, making America less secure for our children & grandchildren.

OBLs reasons for hating America are irrelevant. Some people just want others to suffer, and need no cause or justification to commit heinous crimes.

You appear to be under some impression one day the fighting stops, WWII style. This idea is a myth!
War for us Americans is our past, our present, and our future. Period. This is the cost of doing business, to borrow an economic expression. Its not even a geopolitical topic; its basic human nature. Not seeking a fight means jack to someone deciding they want one with you.

Im sure we all here wish it were as simple as fighting and going home.Declare war, fight ,then pack it up.

The world does not work this way. Even if we closed our overseas bases,pulled back our military, spent the money on wind farms and scrapped the excess ships and bombers and guns and tanks....someone else will bring the fight to us. We tried that experiement, and the outcome was Pearl Harbor. We tried it again in the 90s and got 9/11 as a reward.

Going forward ,defending the homeland means occasionally visiting someone elses. Its interesting that while some Americans gnash their teeth at the notion of an overseas deployment, France & Russia do the same with little domestic fuss.

[Joe in PNG]

OBLs reasons for hating America are irrelevant. Some people just want others to suffer, and need no cause or justification to commit heinous crimes.

This. The exact details of justification for doing bad things to people is seldom important to the people doing bad things.

Notice how the vast number of post WWI German Communist street thugs happily turned Nazi when the Nazis came to power.

[Lex Luthier]

Probably the only political tune this New York-based, Memphis-inspired band ever did. They were living in London, UK at the time.



Based on interviews I've read, and conversations I've had with the songwriter, he's not far off from the late Pat Rogers' take on the situation.

What does it tell you when a licentious world-touring rock & roll guitar player agrees with your Texas-born WW II Pacific theater-surviving
grandpa?

[0ddl0t]

Historically, if a Country A sends someone into Country B to lead an armed resistance against the government of Country B, Country B is perfectly in it's rights to execute that person.

In fact, sending that guy has historically been a cause for Country B to declare war.

So, why are people still defending Iran in this? I honestly want to know actual reasons besides "Orange Man BAD!".

Western civilization has been meddling in the middle east and trying to pick winners and losers sympathetic to us since the Crusades. Over the last 50 years America has taken the lead for the West - ever since the US helped Mohammad Reza assume leadership of Iran after WWII. Iraq's boundaries were basically fabricated by the allies partitioning the Ottoman Empire after WWI.

We are country A!

Who did we "occupy" that lead to 9/11? Saudi Arabia? I'm no fan of Saudi, but we don't occupy them, we are there as allies.

America has been militarily supporting certain leaders, guys who are far from saints but who support our interests, for over 70 years. We've actively stifled civil reforms to promote "stability." It is no coincidence that almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.

I know you see no value in allies from your previous posts, nor do you see any value in protecting our world standing.

I value allies and would support them in defensive endeavors against foreign combatants. I do not agree with "promoting stability" within the country - every man and every country ought to have the right of self determination.

You see no value in promoting our culture or protecting our economic interests.

On the contrary. The best way we can promote our culture and economic interest is to lead by example. Freedom, self determination, and capitalism are their own rewards - we do not need to shove it down anyone's throat.

Even a cursory glance at history should show you that a civilization who takes that path is declining or extinct.

On the contrary. Nations who stick their noses into other people's businesses and try to hold power over greater and greater swaths of the globe die young. Nations that pursue armed neutrality live long, long lives.

You apparently think we are the root of the issues.

Not quite. The issues have been there for millennia, we're just unable to solve them and our interference is bound to make enemies. Why do so when we do not have any realistic plan to achieve lasting peace? We are not the world police, we do not need to involve ourselves in others' domestic disputes.

OBLs reasons for hating America are irrelevant. Some people just want others to suffer, and need no cause or justification to commit heinous crimes.

No, his reasons for hating America were quite relevant - we were playing chess in the region and using him as a pawn.

War for us Americans is our past, our present, and our future. Period.

I sure hope not. For the first time in our history, the average native-born American has lived through more times of war than peace. That is pathetic and sad.

We tried that experiement, and the outcome was Pearl Harbor. We tried it again in the 90s and got 9/11 as a reward.

Pearl Harbor was provoked by our direct economic warfare against Japan and our indirect support to Japan's enemies. It was not an unprovoked attack. And we provoked the 9/11 hijackers by using them as pawns when it suited us and helping our "allies" repress them at other times.

That said, even the Swiss have been rare victims of terrorism. It'll happen if we're neutral too, and we can respond appropriately (unlike today, where we continue to fight long after OBL & 9/11 masterminds are dead).