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Thread: Continuously humbled by LEM trigger.

  1. #1

    Continuously humbled by LEM trigger.

    Today is four weeks that I've been working with LEM. 800 rounds, 700 of which are either slow or moderate fire. Almost daily dry-fire of all kinds, wall drill, one handed, slow pressouts, fast pressouts, timer, reloads. I get stellar (for me) results at slow, bullseye rate of fire.

    Today I went to try at speed for the first time - I did a pin shoot. 15 feet, 5 pins, 8 rounds, you know the drill. On a first run, I left 4 pins standing. This is more than I ever left standing in any of my previous whole matches. I proceeded to finish last out of 31 shooters. I don't shoot those matches fast, but I rarely miss. My last match I shot with G19 and didn't miss a single pin. Today I left third of my pins standing. Coming off my AFHF class when I got on the Wall, this serves to show the extent of my performance degradation with LEM.

    90% of that is anticipation and pushing the muzzle low. I am calling my misses, and I see them on paper. I see it on moderately paced B&D, although it is hard to tell on B&D, pre-ignition or post; based on results I see on paper, it is pre. I tried SLG's idea of going really fast and at times it seemed to help, but today's match ended that notion.

    I don't know if I have a believable plan how to fix it. Keep B&D, keep slow? Shoot slow, shoot slow, go faster, come back to slow if I start missing, is that it? I seem to be hitting OK slow, but any speed and I dip the muzzle.

    I don't believe any more that rolling trigger helps with anticipation. Regardless if it is true or not, I didn't need to deal with first shot during today's pin match, so the trigger travel wasn't a problem. I am actually very perplexed why I missed all those shots, it shouldn't have been that different than shooting a Glock. I was allowed to take the slack on first shot, so all shots were really a follow-up shots.

    Those of you who went Glock/MP to LEM/TDA, how long did it take to start believing? I know it is highly individual, but just to keep as a reference...

    I am scheduled to shoot my first ever USPSA match on Saturday. My desire to stick with training plan and shoot P30 is being evenly matched by lack of any confidence in my ability with it at the moment.
    Last edited by YVK; 11-04-2011 at 02:43 AM.

  2. #2
    I love my HK LEM pistols, but my scores on each day's test at Rogers are 15-20 points higher with a M&P Pro this time than last time thru with a P30 LEM.

  3. #3
    Yep, George, we did chat about this during the class. While I am bummed that I am doing worse than I expected, that by itself is not a problem. Problem is that I don't know how to read all this.

    Even if I never exceeded my Glock performance with P30, I'd prefer P30.
    Even if I never matched my Glock performance with P30 but staying with HK would make me a better shooter overall, I'd be willing to continue for some time.

    As with anything in life, the tough part is to realize whether I am getting any return on investment. My P30 experience so far is like my 401(K); I've put money in both, both going downhill.

    The second tough part is to understand what I am doing wrong and how to fix it right. It feels that I am doing how it is supposed to be done - take time, go slow, slow fire, slow fire, but how much effin slow fire do I need to do? SecondsCount had his for the same time I had mine and we probably have same round counts. He, just like I am, is a 1911 and striker-pistol kind of guy mostly. He run his P30 during the same match and rocked it, smooth and fast, probably shot the best time if you exclude dudes with trick guns. Obviously, regular dudes can shoot this platform well, but it doesn't help me to understand if I need to give it more time and patience, or it is just not going to happen.
    Last edited by YVK; 11-04-2011 at 01:29 AM.

  4. #4
    As a recovering HK addict, I can spot one under the spell from 1,600 miles away. After shooting 15,000 rounds thru a P30 last year, I was dismayed to be shooting a G17 and M&P better than my HK, within the first magazine. Every few months I relapse, but cure that by shooting my HK pistols on the timer.

    A few rounds slow to verify zero, and get a feel for the trigger makes sense, but as Bill Rogers says, unless your goal is to shoot slow, continued slow practice is a waste of ammo, since most any pistol and stance can look good at half speed.

    As Todd said, the timer alone is not the only criteria, and for the hammer, accuracy, reliability, and build quality you may still choose to carry an HK. I do, but I know that I shoot my M&P and Glock pistols better.

  5. #5
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    To really do well with the P30 you have to work the trigger differently...it has to be a more consistent, rolling trigger pull than with a Glock. Generally when I miss with the P30 it's the result of pressing the trigger all at once (which triggers anticipation for me) versus taking just an extra hundredth or so of a second to think about rolling through the trigger pull. A "rolling" trigger pull simply means constant consistent movement throughout the pull. The longer the trigger pull, the more critical it is to do that bit correctly.

    It takes work. I'll be at the range this afternoon, for instance, and the primary focus of the rounds I fire today will be working on properly rolling through the trigger, especially on quick multiple shot strings.

  6. #6
    We are diminished
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    Feb 2011
    The LEM needs to be worked like a DA revolver, which can be very tricky for someone who is used to Glocks, tuned 1911s, FSS'd M&Ps, etc.

    It's critically important that your finger never stop moving from the beginning of the press until the gun goes off. The movement should be consistent without "steps" or stops. The fact that you began "with the slack out" suggests to me that you're still trying to use it like a SAO gun with long pre-travel, and that's doomed to failure.

    FWIW, as a guy who is much better attuned to the LEM than a Glock or SAO trigger, it's taken me more than six months and multiple trigger mechanism tweaks to get my G17 shooting the way I like. Different strokes for different folks.

  7. #7
    Member HeadHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    The LEM needs to be worked like a DA revolver,
    Maybe I should try one.
    When I give private lessons, if I need to demo, I use the student's gun. That way they don't think I'm using a tricked out SCCY to be able to shoot well.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post

    It's critically important that your finger never stop moving from the beginning of the press until the gun goes off. The movement should be consistent without "steps" or stops. The fact that you began "with the slack out" suggests to me that you're still trying to use it like a SAO gun with long pre-travel, and that's doomed to failure.
    There are times when I know I stage it. I actually try to stop the shot and start again. Then there are times it looks like I do but in fact I never stop applying pressure - that's how I try to shoot on slow accuracy drills. However, I do try to keep on with continuous motion through - in fact RO at the match said that I was rolling through. And missing. Something makes me fully aware that the trigger is nearly at the end of a travel and that's when the shot is about to come off. I keep wishing not for a shorter trigger pull but for an earlier break point, although I don't know if it would make a difference.

    I truly don't understand why so much difference in follow up shots between P30 and Glock - with follow ups, trigger travel, reset (on my P30) and trigger pull are nearly identical.

    Never thought I'd have a pleasure of saying this, but here it comes, on behalf of 1911 fan base - it is a payback time: Glock trigger is a crutch.

  9. #9
    Member JohnN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    It's critically important that your finger never stop moving from the beginning of the press until the gun goes off. The movement should be consistent without "steps" or stops. The fact that you began "with the slack out" suggests to me that you're still trying to use it like a SAO gun with long pre-travel, and that's doomed to failure.
    One thousand rounds into the transition from M&P to P30 I was saying to myself, I don't need this headache and go back to the M&P. After exchanging emails back and forth with Todd he gave me the above advise and told me to stick with it. Now I am moderately happy with my performance but I have the opposite problem from you. Shooting slow fire groups is more challenging to me than shooting fast paced drills. My SHO shooting has improved quite a bit, again following Todd's advise of walk back drills on a 3x5 target but WHO not so much. Really want the Grayguns trigger job but investing in a couple of thousand additional rounds might improve my WHO shooting more.

  10. #10
    We are diminished
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    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    Maybe I should try one.
    It's like a DAO trigger that lets you cheat. I think it's awesome.

    Having said that, it's not a religion and if there are folks who simply can't make it work for them... don't kill yourself trying. Or put it down and come back to it in six months. Or spend some time working with a DA revolver.

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