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Thread: Decision Point for Switching from Irons to RDO?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    I’m open minded to rdo despite concerns about reliability because I don’t understand the penalties for rdo failure to be very severe. I don’t understand common rdo failure modes to preclude the use of buis, and I currently rely on the functional equivalent of buis on a daily basis. What am I missing? Why would concerns about rdo reliability preclude their immediate adoption for concealed carry applications?
    A few considerations. BUIS can be harder to see, and thus use effectively, through a red dot display, especially through something tinted like the RMR. One misplaced drop of moisture, or the wrong sun angle on the emitter, can make multiple dots or even block being able to use the BUIS. Something like the TLR-8G is ideal as it provides an alternative sighting system if the dot’s display is blocked.

    I think someone carrying a red dot should practice shooting through pure index, without dots or BUIS, to see what they are capable of with an impaired display.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    When target is moving I have great confidence in my dot guns. When I am moving and the target is moving? Currently that is by far my weakest interface with the platform.
    It's the weakest because it's got an added variable, now do it one handed. It's been tested to death and its hard to do, especially in the sweet post of distance from 5-10m, you might not have time to aim at all due to the circumstances of the real world deadly force confrontation.

    The issue that most want to gloss over is that square range/gaming training of dots isn't applicable to real world experience of how "gunfights" usually go. People don't stand there, that's just fantasy.
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  3. #33
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    It's the weakest because it's got an added variable, now do it one handed. It's been tested to death and its hard to do, especially in the sweet post of distance from 5-10m, you might not have time to aim at all due to the circumstances of the real world deadly force confrontation.

    The issue that most want to gloss over is that square range/gaming training of dots isn't applicable to real world experience of how "gunfights" usually go. People don't stand there, that's just fantasy.

    I am going to have to disagree with your last sentence. It does happen and it happens a lot. There are hundreds of videos of actual gunfights now to prove it. I have witnessed it first hand. Back when I was taught that way, I did it that way in real life. Is it optimum to stand and deliver instead of move? Sometimes, sometimes not, but it does happen with both parties or with one or the other.

  4. #34
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    Since migrating to red dots about six months ago or so, my index has improved tremendously. Maybe it's because I've worked harder, practiced more or perhaps it's because picking up the dot in the window has to be more precise, as in, there's less latitude, than there is when picking up iron sight alignment.

    Regardless I like the end result. And I KNOW my distance accuracy is considerably better with a red dot. I shoot more confidently as a result.

    I haven't gone to a red dot on my carry gun as I'm still evaluating and learning. But the time is coming.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    How often have you, or anyone who wants to answer, trained dryfire and/or FoF with an RMR/RDS when the target is moving and/or you're moving and shooting one handed?

    I've shot enough moving targets on the move in matches to know I would take the dot over irons any time. I have not done so one handed, to me it is a low chance / too low probability / too high risk scenario to spend my time on, but I've shot enough moving targets one handed. I would take the dot over irons any time again. Anything that moves I want to shoot target focused, and adding additional complexity only escalates my preference not to care about sight alignment.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    I am going to have to disagree with your last sentence. It does happen and it happens a lot. There are hundreds of videos of actual gunfights now to prove it. I have witnessed it first hand. Back when I was taught that way, I did it that way in real life. Is it optimum to stand and deliver instead of move? Sometimes, sometimes not, but it does happen with both parties or with one or the other.
    Sure it's optimum to stand and make precision shots, is that the standard which we are to train to or should we train to the harder standard? I'll train for the harder one, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    I've shot enough moving targets on the move in matches to know I would take the dot over irons any time. I have not done so one handed, to me it is a low chance / too low probability / too high risk scenario to spend my time on, but I've shot enough moving targets one handed. I would take the dot over irons any time again. Anything that moves I want to shoot target focused, and adding additional complexity only escalates my preference not to care about sight alignment.
    Matches? I assume they all went the same speed and weren't shooting back at you? Right?
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  7. #37
    Nope, if you shot matches, you'd know that the speed of moving targets varies quite a bit depending on the prop, whether it is at apex or bottom of a travel, distance of travel etc. Some setups include suspended platforms when you're moving but cant control the rhythm of movement at all.

    Clearly, they weren't shooting at me. Does that fact change what you, as a shooter, need to do with your eyes and trigger finger?
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Nope, if you shot matches, you'd know that the speed of moving targets varies quite a bit depending on the prop, whether it is at apex or bottom of a travel, distance of travel etc. Some setups include suspended platforms when you're moving but cant control the rhythm of movement at all.

    Clearly, they weren't shooting at me. Does that fact change what you, as a shooter, need to do with your eyes and trigger finger?
    You missed the point, gaming isn't training.

    Well you're making the argument I've been making for a while on here for me. The only take away from gaming that applies to reality is the fact you pull the trigger and manipulate the gun, other than that, nothing else.

    In the immortal words of iron Mike Tyson....



    Only replace punched in the mouth with being shot at, point is that it doesn't matter what type of game you played or what your experience was at it, the moment you get shot at that all disappears and is replaced by an immediate regret of not pursuing real world tactical training.
    VDMSR.com
    Chief Developer for V Development Group
    Everything I post I do so as a private individual who is not representing any company or organization.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    You missed the point, gaming isn't training.

    Well you're making the argument I've been making for a while on here for me. The only take away from gaming that applies to reality is the fact you pull the trigger and manipulate the gun, other than that, nothing else.

    In the immortal words of iron Mike Tyson....



    Only replace punched in the mouth with being shot at, point is that it doesn't matter what type of game you played or what your experience was at it, the moment you get shot at that all disappears and is replaced by an immediate regret of not pursuing real world tactical training.
    You just can't stand others having a different viewpoint than you. Seek help.
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 01-10-2020 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #40
    I am assuming all the mil/LE interest in red dot capable handguns is either fake news or them fixin’ to get killed in the streets?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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