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Thread: Locked Wrist Enigma, advice requested

  1. #51
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    I concur with others, you’re over thinking this. If you shoot irons, I suggest getting a dot.

    Switching to a dot taught me more in 2 months than the past couple years about what works for me.

    It’s easier to call shots and see exactly what’s happening in recoil.


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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    ....even the timing with which we manipulate the trigger.
    I think this is a key aspect to understanding the transition from slow fire to rapid fire. As we are moving our finger more rapidly in doubles, our body is anticipating the recoil, and hence the flinch to low left as we are learning to shoot shots rapidly in succession. We have to let recoil happen for rapid follow up shots that are accurate. We're basically retraining ourselves to accept recoil.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gomerpyle View Post
    I dont know why Ben Stoeger calls it a drill. All of his drills are basically diagnostics...
    He's right. Drills are for learning new skills and improving (which includes a diagnostic element) existing skills. The match is the test.

    Because most pistol shooters don't compete, their trainers have decided to use drills as tests of skill. Go see the "drill of the week" forum, it's full of examples. That's not what drills are for. They have no "if you miss X times the drill is done". Drills are done over and over and over to work on skill, not to measure skill.
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 12-30-2019 at 09:28 AM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    So is it shooting doubles or a hyper state of self awareness? Shooting zen? If you have shooting zen why do you need doubles?
    Go pay for a class with Stoeger. The answers to all your questions will be revealed......................

  5. #55
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    So is it shooting doubles or a hyper state of self awareness? Shooting zen? If you have shooting zen why do you need doubles?
    Sigh.

    You have some very accomplished shooters here telling you that the doubles drill is a very important foundational drill for practical shooting, you should listen to that advice. As noted above, the very best production shooter on the planet spends a large portion of his time on this drill - that should tell you something.

    In video, shooting the doubles drill looks like it may be just wasting ammo by blasting away at a target. In practice, it’s a diagnostic tool that, if you pay attention to what your sights and resulting hits are telling you, can help you to quickly self diagnose problems and experiment with a whole host of inputs on the gun; sight alignment, trigger press and prep, grip pressure/technique, stance, etc. It’s ammo intensive, but if done properly can save you time and effort, if you just pay attention to the gun.

    You discover the benefits of this drill pretty quickly if you shoot it enough, but it’s up to you to give it a try or not.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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  6. #56
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @YVK, I’ve come to the opposite conclusion. I don’t think grip strength is as important as I used to think it was.
    I’ve thought this for a while. I think gripping the gun hard is important, but having above average grip strength, relative to the average human, is less important. I think we’re all plenty strong enough to control recoil if we make sure we apply that strength in ways that make the gun to move around the least. Unfortunately, an optimal grip is slightly different for everyone, and that’s what makes these threads so hard for many to understand, and why we all find the doubles drill so instructional.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    For the OP's benefit, here are the doubles drill's benchmarks for iron sights

    5 yards, sub .2 splits, 100% Alphas
    10 yards, .20 splits, 95% Alphas
    15 yards, .25 splits, 90% Alphas
    20 yards, .30 splits, 85% Alphas
    25 yards, .35 splits, 80% Alphas

    Procedure
    At the start beep, draw and get a good sight picture. When you have an acceptable sight picture, send a pair of shots at the predetermined split for the distance. Stabilize the sights, send another pair at the required speed. Repeat until you've fired four pairs. Repeat that string five more times for a total of 48 rounds on target.

    Focus: grip and trigger control

    Comments
    Draw time and time between pairs are unimportant. Only splits matter for this drill. Ignoring the prescribed splits to get a second sight picture during the pair defeats the purpose of this drill. Accuracy has to come from controlling the gun through recoil, not from letting the sights settle for the second shot.
    Thanks for this. I don't recall whether these are the same standards that I used the last time that I tried the drill or one like it.

    I can say that I have a hard time getting to a range that I can get split times on (even though I do have the equipment and do manage to do so from time to time). While I can't, won't, and don't argue with split times and other timer based drills being important, the reality is that much of my training has to occur without a timer.

    I can't recall what my numbers were last time, but I seem to recall that my speeds and capabilities were closer to the .4 - .6 split times with 90 - 100% "alphas" in the 7 - 10 yards range (I was using a round rather than rectangular/polygonal shooting area). I know that I've improved since then, so I am pretty sure I could do better, but I can only tell this because of the sights and cadence I'm able to achieve right now, versus a shot timer (since I haven't been able to make it to a shot timer friendly area recently).

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    I would say that is true for many people. For me once I started trying to apply Hwansik's take on returning the gun after the recoil is done, I lost the wrist tension I used to have and it took a little bit of deliberate focus during Doubles to bring it back.
    My experience has been the opposite. For me, Kim's discussion was the only thing that actually led to me getting results with regards to wrist tension and grip where I saw consistent improvements in how the gun was recoiling. Slow improvement, because of limitations in shooting time (obviously), but improvements nonetheless.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    Either you have the musculature to maintain your wrist position or you don't. If you have have the strength to maintain your wrist position all you need to do is grip the gun firmly to engage those muscles.

    If your wrist aren’t strong enough, which I highly doubt, you can work on wrist strength or upper body strength in general for 5 minutes a day three times a week, and be good in a month or so.
    With great respect, I don't doubt that many shooters here have stronger wrists than I do, but the 3x10 metric you gave previously was not at all inaccessible to me right now just doing some quick tests in the kitchen. While I do work on my grip strength, it's also clear to me that the above advice is *not* universal.

    I have heard over and over that simply gripping the gun harder/firmly would engage my wrists muscles that prevent wrist movement. This seems to be extremely good advice that works for a great many people. It does not appear to work that way for me. Maybe I don't know what "grip firmly" means. But if I grip the gun, no matter how hard I grip it, the amount of free motion that can happen in my wrists is minimal, but extant, wrist tension. Increasing grip tension for me does not proportionally or meaningful increase wrist tension.

    The simple explanation is that for some people, grip effort and wrist tension are independent, not dependent action.

    To clarify, are you able to lock your wrist such that the knuckles of the hand won't move, but still keep your fingers loose so that they can flop around?

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I wouldn’t get hung up on locked wrist or any one thing. Just like trigger technique, we often run into issues around the language we use, how others interpret words, and individual variations in technique.

    I think what we can agree on, is our stance and grip should bring the pistol back to a place where we can fire a fast follow-up shot without having to re-grip the pistol or move it so the sights are properly aligned. There are multiple elements to make that happen, starting with stance, then grip, and even the timing with which we manipulate the trigger.
    It seems to me that everyone says that if you try to be precise with your language, you are overthinking it, but then there are all of these assertions that all the language we are using is too loose to really mean anything, because, I think, we're trying to use simple language.

    Does no one think that trying to be very precise about what is happening and understanding not just the end goal but the primary factors involved precisely would greatly contribute to the effective learning of this material? Are we forever going to be stuck with "just feel it" without being able to provide any consistent advice other than "try a bunch of these visualizations and tips and see what sticks?" It seems to me that this isn't what sports science does, and it would seem to me to be valuable to continue to refine the accuracy, totality, holism, and vocabulary of the practice of training in the shooting discipline, no?

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