Locked Wrist Enigma, advice requested

[arcfide]

Alright, so the "Glock wrist angle" thread got me thinking again about my shooting position. I've been making strides on the whole "locked wrist" thing, but I'll readily admit that I have struggled with this single piece of advice probably more than any other I have seen in the shooting fundamentals category. For some reason, I just can't seem to get the "tension" that people talk about. Theoretically, I know what they are talking about, and I can, without shooting or handling a gun, demonstrate the muscular principles in action. However, when shooting, I've always struggled to put them into practice, and this is even in dry fire. I can tell that when I shoot a gun, the "locking" just isn't there. I've witnessed this across a wide range of guns, including Glocks of various generations, APX's, M9's, VP9's, Sigs of various sorts, CZ's, and so on. In short, I can't blame any of the hardware for having the wrong grip angle.

However, just today, I thought about this some more, and then I realized a discrepancy that I'm seeing between the videos that are shown online demonstrating wrist lock and my own wrists. Most people talk about having a wrist locked and then demonstrate locking the wrist of their support hand by pointing the fingers down. A highlighted pointed of this is that the thumb then appears to be in line with the axis of the forearm and the fingers appear to point down at something between a 45 and 60 degree angle. I never really thought about this too much, since it made sense the way that people were describing it.

Unfortunately, I think I've discovered a problem, and I'd like some help in possibly finding a solution. I decided to look at my locked wrists again and I notice that when I hold my hands the way that other people show in videos and in person, my wrists aren't locked. In fact, my wrist isn't even near the point where the muscles in the hand would begin to reach that "preload" phase that locking entails. In fact, in order for me to feel that preload in my wrists, I need to rotate my fingers and wrist to about the 80 - 90 degree point, with the real tension only really showing up around the 90 degree range.

I don't have any pictures of this right now, but basically, if my forearm is parallel to the floor and I lock my wrists to the point of preload, then my fingers are pointing roughly straight down perpendicular to the floor.

This means that, essentially, that I can't really reach a preload on my wrists to any meaningful degree with any gun and still point my arms out while holding the gun on target. I can get a preload on my wrists if I bend my elbows into myself at about a 70 - 80 degree angle and then lock the wrists, and then the gun is pointing more or less straight out, but that's obviously biomechanically unsound.

TL;DR: My wrists bend to a 90 degree angle before achieving preloading, how do I achieve good recoil control given that I can't create a solid lock on my wrists and still maintain a reasonable arm extension?

[runcible]

For clarity:

A locked wrist describes the angle between forearm and hand being fixed through muscular tension; this is desirable in the firearms realm as it provides for greater recoil management during firing, as expressed in faster cycling of the slide and a reduced departure of the sights from the eyeline.

A neutral wrist describes the angle between forearm and hand reflecting a lack of muscular inclination towards either attitude (e.g. in the direction of\against the palms, in the direction of ulna or radius); this is desirable in the firearms realm as it provides for the minimal reduction of grip strength as relates to wrist angle, given the tendons unrestricted operation.

A neutral wrist may be locked or unlocked, depending on the presence or absence isometric tension loaded upon it.

A locked wrist maybe neutral or articulated, depending on the angle held before the loading of tension.

The two terms may coexist with each other, be present singularly, or be collectively absent.

In tangent: I find kettlebell goblet squats (variation: bell over horns, held by the horns) to be effective for teaching and conditioning neutral+locked wrists; it's convenient on the conditioning side that a lot can be done with them, without necessitating a heavy weight. I would categorize them as sport-specific conditioning, but not as skill transfer drills.

[txdpd]

You're thinking way too hard about this. If you squeeze something hard, you will lock your wrist to the best of your ability. The real benefit of "gripping hard" is that you create isometric tension throughout your upper body, most folks will default to a stable platform. If you grip hard enough that the pistol isn't moving around in your hands under recoil and your wrist are a problem, (they’ll hurt really bad) you just need to do wrist strengthening. If you hadn't of read about locking your wrist, most likely, you never would have had a problem.



If you need wrist strengthening, go to kitchen find a decently heavy pan and do some pronator/supinator twist. That feels about the same as a 4lb engineers hammer. If you can do something like 3 sets of ten reps, you got all the wrist strength you need for shooting.

[SoCalDep]

I would say this... the entire concept of recoil control (if which grip is a significant factor) is such a large topic that a single piece of that puzzle (is: locked wrist) can not have a single “right way” for everyone. Look at Mike Seeklander and Bob Vogel. Two really good shooters with slight variations on grip and support hand placement. Variation continues to be apparent when other shooters are brought into the list.

Physical limitations can also be a factor. Not everyone’s body is the same. Jack Weaver developed his “stance” in large part due to physical limitations from an injury and for decades it was the way.

Further, isometric tension in a good grip can have many angles of pressure from front to rear and rear to front, in a clamshell motion, and rolling the meaty part of the palms upward and inward, as well as locking the wrist of the support hand. All of these can be factors for a good grip.

For me, the biggest factor in the grip is that the gun does not move in the hand. If the gun moves in the hand one will either lack consistency or have to re-grip which is a significant time suck in rapid fire. I purposely do not lock my wrist as far as I can because that would prevent me from getting more control on the rear of the pistol grip/frame and allow less muscular control over other aspects of my grip.

I have seen A LOT of shooters who hear one aspect of a concept and focus on that alone. The locked support wrist and locked arms are two I see frequently. They look great until you see that locked wrist not moving at all while the gun pivots independently. They think they are doing it “right” because a good shooter said to lock the wrists, but driving a car fast is a whole lot more than hitting the gas.

In short, I’ve become very wary of saying “do this” or “do that” without being able to see the grip during live fire.

[Clobbersaurus]

You're thinking way too hard about this.

In short, I’ve become very wary of saying “do this” or “do that” without being able to see the grip during live fire.

Yep.

Buy a case of ammo and spend the whole case of it shooting the doubles drill. Do whatever works best for you to mitigate recoil at the three distances prescribed in that drill and forget what you have been reading or viewing online. Your body is unique and you need to do what works best for you. Once you figure out what works best, ingrain that technique in dry fire and move on to other skills.

The doubles drill was a revelation for me and I consider it a core drill that I will continue to invest a large portion of my time and ammo budget on.

[Clusterfrack]

I can’t remember which thread I posted about this before, but here’s what I wrote:

“There are a lot of people who don't really know why what they do works, and some of these people are very accomplished shooters. After spending serious time down Hwansik Kim's rabbit hole, I think there is:

1) Confusion between gripping hard and locking the wrist. It is not obvious that these can be done independently unless you work on it.

2) Confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart.

3) Confusion between how everyone needs to grip guns, and how a particular gun fits one person's hand.”

Also, I think it’s more important to have consistent tracking of the sights between shots than it is to minimize muzzle flip.

[arcfide]

Thanks for all the advice so far! I appreciate the help. I agree that it may seem like I'm overthinking this, but I do have my excuses for doing so. It does start with some stuff that Hwansik Kim has been talking about. I really want to get a video up here demonstrating some stuff, but I haven't been able to make that happen all year.

In short, I've spent a lot of time playing around with grip through the years, and I've spent a lot of time playing with "grip strength" and how hard to grip a gun. I had been almost universally disappointed with my performance. None of the general "tips" or ways that people described working with things tended to make sense. A lot of it emphasized locking up various parts of the body, or not locking them up, and a common theme that tends to emerge is some degree of grip strength and keeping the gun from jumping around in your hand. However, I've never found those things to really work well for me.

Going with the lists of things mentioned below, things like pressure rear to front and side to side with the clamshell type grip or rolling the palms up and so forth are all things that I can do, but they result in what I would consider marginal improvements in second shot control. After I reach the point where the gun doesn't move in my hand, that's where the problems on progressing start.

If I don't let the gun move in my hand and I am reasonably relaxed, then I can get very consistent tracking and movement of the gun, but there is waay too much recoil and muzzle rise/gun movement vertically at way too slow a speed to get fast follow-up shots. It is consistent, but not fast.

I've found that increasing grip strength applied to the gun (or at least framing it like that) does just about zero for my recoil control, and can often decrease trackability or "flatness". Before Hwansik Kim, everyone emphasized grip strength so much (except for a few outliers that were focusing on other shooting requirements beyond the speed of a second followup shot) that it was a little frustrating. However, hearing some of his analysis of locked wrists was one of the first major breakthroughs I've had in a while. I think his analysis of the confusion of grip strength and locked wrists as discussed above are spot on.

People kept talking about a strong grip as somehow keeping the gun from rotating, but I've never found this to be the case. I can grip as strong as I can on a pistol and my wrist will have only slightly decreased range of motion and resistance. I didn't realize that for most people, apparently, but gripping hard, you lock up your whole wrist and oftentimes the elbow, too. For me, these are entirely independent activities, as are most of the other muscles. But when I tried Kim's advice of not worrying so much about grip strength and emphasizing the reduction in vertical and horizontal movement through even pressure and the appropriate muscular tension in the wrists, particularly in the pinky side of the wrists, I saw marked improvements in trackability and recoil control. However, it's just the tip of the iceberg, and I know that I have a long way to go.

And so this is really my reason for appearing to overthink this, because the "simple" advice doesn't work for me. For whatever reason, I'll mostly operate the majority of the major regions of muscular control very independently from one another from what other people are self-reporting their behavior to be. I also find that things like "clamshell" and "rolling over" and the like often interfere with my muscular tension to the point that it unlocks muscles and all sorts of other things, leading to a mild case of limp wristing. So the general advice isn't "effective" for me because my interpretation of that advice doesn't seem to lead to the intended results, except for marginal improvements occasionally to the point that I can't assign causation.

I continue to put many rounds of practice in to track this behavior and try to fix things, but I have a limited amount of time at the range, and I have to do a lot of "self analysis" in dry time to maximize my time on the range, which is why I am going so "over thinking" on this. I need to know what the real causes are to recoil control, so that I can manifest that in my own body accounting for my own nervous system behaviors, because the "intuitive shortcuts" such as "grip the gun hard" don't actually work for me (for gripping hard, I can grip the gun as hard as I can to the point of shaking and still see almost the same amount of muzzle flip as without a strong grip). Thus, I'm trying to figure out exactly what really needs to happen and how to achieve that, and I'm looking for some "perspectives" to try to get some progress made more efficiently rather than trying literally the millions of possible variations under the sun to get where I want to go.

I appreciate all the thoughts and advice you can give. I just wanted to give some context to this. I've found the "over analyzing" approach of Hwansik Kim has netted me the most significant gains across the board, with Leathem's and Langdon's trigger control advice second.

If I'm honest, what I really need to do is get to Langdon's or Kim's classes and get some diagnostic advice from them in person, but until then, I have to keep trying to make progress with the help of those at a distance.

[Alpha Sierra]

Thanks for all the advice so far! I appreciate the help. I agree that it may seem like I'm overthinking this, but I do have my excuses for doing so. It does start with some stuff that Hwansik Kim has been talking about. I really want to get a video up here demonstrating some stuff, but I haven't been able to make that happen all year.

In short, I've spent a lot of time playing around with grip through the years, and I've spent a lot of time playing with "grip strength" and how hard to grip a gun. I had been almost universally disappointed with my performance. None of the general "tips" or ways that people described working with things tended to make sense. A lot of it emphasized locking up various parts of the body, or not locking them up, and a common theme that tends to emerge is some degree of grip strength and keeping the gun from jumping around in your hand. However, I've never found those things to really work well for me.

Going with the lists of things mentioned below, things like pressure rear to front and side to side with the clamshell type grip or rolling the palms up and so forth are all things that I can do, but they result in what I would consider marginal improvements in second shot control. After I reach the point where the gun doesn't move in my hand, that's where the problems on progressing start.

If I don't let the gun move in my hand and I am reasonably relaxed, then I can get very consistent tracking and movement of the gun, but there is waay too much recoil and muzzle rise/gun movement vertically at way too slow a speed to get fast follow-up shots. It is consistent, but not fast.

I've found that increasing grip strength applied to the gun (or at least framing it like that) does just about zero for my recoil control, and can often decrease trackability or "flatness". Before Hwansik Kim, everyone emphasized grip strength so much (except for a few outliers that were focusing on other shooting requirements beyond the speed of a second followup shot) that it was a little frustrating. However, hearing some of his analysis of locked wrists was one of the first major breakthroughs I've had in a while. I think his analysis of the confusion of grip strength and locked wrists as discussed above are spot on.

People kept talking about a strong grip as somehow keeping the gun from rotating, but I've never found this to be the case. I can grip as strong as I can on a pistol and my wrist will have only slightly decreased range of motion and resistance. I didn't realize that for most people, apparently, but gripping hard, you lock up your whole wrist and oftentimes the elbow, too. For me, these are entirely independent activities, as are most of the other muscles. But when I tried Kim's advice of not worrying so much about grip strength and emphasizing the reduction in vertical and horizontal movement through even pressure and the appropriate muscular tension in the wrists, particularly in the pinky side of the wrists, I saw marked improvements in trackability and recoil control. However, it's just the tip of the iceberg, and I know that I have a long way to go.

And so this is really my reason for appearing to overthink this, because the "simple" advice doesn't work for me. For whatever reason, I'll mostly operate the majority of the major regions of muscular control very independently from one another from what other people are self-reporting their behavior to be. I also find that things like "clamshell" and "rolling over" and the like often interfere with my muscular tension to the point that it unlocks muscles and all sorts of other things, leading to a mild case of limp wristing. So the general advice isn't "effective" for me because my interpretation of that advice doesn't seem to lead to the intended results, except for marginal improvements occasionally to the point that I can't assign causation.

I continue to put many rounds of practice in to track this behavior and try to fix things, but I have a limited amount of time at the range, and I have to do a lot of "self analysis" in dry time to maximize my time on the range, which is why I am going so "over thinking" on this. I need to know what the real causes are to recoil control, so that I can manifest that in my own body accounting for my own nervous system behaviors, because the "intuitive shortcuts" such as "grip the gun hard" don't actually work for me (for gripping hard, I can grip the gun as hard as I can to the point of shaking and still see almost the same amount of muzzle flip as without a strong grip). Thus, I'm trying to figure out exactly what really needs to happen and how to achieve that, and I'm looking for some "perspectives" to try to get some progress made more efficiently rather than trying literally the millions of possible variations under the sun to get where I want to go.

I appreciate all the thoughts and advice you can give. I just wanted to give some context to this. I've found the "over analyzing" approach of Hwansik Kim has netted me the most significant gains across the board, with Leathem's and Langdon's trigger control advice second.

If I'm honest, what I really need to do is get to Langdon's or Kim's classes and get some diagnostic advice from them in person, but until then, I have to keep trying to make progress with the help of those at a distance.

TLDR; have you ever put your ideas to the test on the doubles drill?

Count me as another believer in the diagnostic power of the drill. But that only works if you have a predominantly analytical mind.

BTW the ONLY time that matters in the doubles drill is the time between the first and second shot of each pair. Draw time and the time between the last shot of a pair and the first shot of the next are completely irrelevant and rushing them can cloud the results of the drill to the point that it can become a waste of ammo.

[SoCalDep]

I totally agree with Clusterfrak, and especially about consistent tracking and sight return.

For arcfide- It is important to remember that there is a difference between what feels good and what provides the best results downrange and on a timer. Further, when changing from something comfortable to something different there is likely to be a performance drop as the new technique is learned - then the benefits start to appear. Lastly, without videoing yourself or having an actual instructor watch you and make suggestions, any of ours will be nothing but a guess... which may work out in the end but is far less effective.

I agree with you that your best option is a class with a good instructor like Ernest Langdon. I don’t think you are over analyzing things - Grip is a complicated subject worthy of lots of analysis. I also think, and no disrespect intended, that many people say things don’t work because they tried them wrong, didn’t give the technique the deliberation and repetition to develop the skill, or took a small piece of a bigger concept that is insufficient when applied independently of the rest. I’m not saying at all that this is you, but more that without seeing it, seeing you shoot in general, and getting an idea of where you are coming from in terms of technique. For example - try to explain in text to anyone how you grip the gun... so they can replicate it. I know I can’t. That’s why a good instructor will be able to literally grip your hand to show you things - and have you grip theirs back to confirm you understand - to physically move your hand and fingers and let you see and feel how a proper technique works, and show you the downrange feedback and the feedback through your sights.

In the mean time, and assuming you can’t get to a class (or classes) right away, I would watch as many videos on grip as you can from as many reputable shooters and instructors as you can. Each may have that little nugget of information you need to get to that next skill level.

[arcfide]

TLDR; have you ever put your ideas to the test on the doubles drill?

When I can I've brought out the timer and tested with doubles, but I don't have those numbers with me right now. Really though, I humbly submit that I'm not even at a point where I can "squeeze" out the most of that drill based on the timer. I can already get a ton of diagnostic from the drill simply by watching the front sight move, but part of the problem is that there are so many confounding variables in the equation and they are none of them independent, which means that it's very hard to "isolate" areas of improvement that I can actually track and attribute to a specific change in practice. I've seen too many things interfere with one another to really be able to understand specifically how to get consistent improvements on that drill. The lack of consistency is why I've been focusing on trigger and grip so much, because I'm convinced (I could be unconvinced) that my grip is a serious weakness right now in my ability to control the gun.

Last major improvement I saw around the locked wrist phenomenon was in a place where I couldn't use a timer, so I have to go back to somewhere where I can and then get some testing done with it, but the truth is that I'm often in a range where I just can't use a timer and get any meaningful results (too much ambient noise from others shooting).

I also don't have enough ammo most of the time to do the type of testing I would need to do in a single session, nor do I have the stamina. Assuming a 5 double string takes 10 rounds and using that to test each individual change in behavior, I'm talking about something like 300,000 to 400,000 rounds of ammo to get any kind of meaningfully statistically significant data across the whole range. And the problem I see right now is that because each variable doesn't appear to be independent of the other, I need to test each in combination with the other (leading to the combinatorial explosion of possibilities) to account of possible interference.

Clearly, just "trying all the variations and seeing what works" isn't affordable for me in time or money. That's why I am trying to prune the tree of possibilities by doing pre-shooting analysis to hopefully spend my ammo more wisely.