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Thread: .38 double wadcutter load

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post
    Good point. And I can see that I've been a regular offender. Sorry about that.

    Is "BG" an accepted abbreviation for "validated 10% ordnance gelatin?"
    OG = ordnance gelatin
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post
    Good point. And I can see that I've been a regular offender. Sorry about that.

    Is "BG" an accepted abbreviation for "validated 10% ordnance gelatin?"
    BG is the abbreviation for Bare Gelatin, meaning no barriers or clothing simulations. Calibration is another issue and that data (BB velocity and penetration numbers) is usually presented with the penetration and expansion data for the projectile and load being tested.
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  3. #123
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    BG = bare gel
    4LD = gel covered with 4 layers of denim
    AG = gel with an intermediate barrier of automobile windshield glass

    All blocks would be validated....
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  4. #124
    Member jtcarm's Avatar
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    FWIW, there’s an excellent article in the Feb American Rifleman on this very topic.

    They did, as someone alluded to, have a .357 mag reamed to maximum (after convincing the smith they weren’t going to load to max pressures.)

    IIRC, two loads performed well out to 15 yards.

    One a “quadcutter” in max brass, but which generated a lot of recoil.

    The other was, I think, loaded in magnum brass and was two WCs topped with a 91 grain LRN designed for the .380 sized to .355 or .356.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by jtcarm View Post
    FWIW, there’s an excellent article in the Feb American Rifleman on this very topic.

    They did, as someone alluded to, have a .357 mag reamed to maximum (after convincing the smith they weren’t going to load to max pressures.)

    IIRC, two loads performed well out to 15 yards.

    One a “quadcutter” in max brass, but which generated a lot of recoil.

    The other was, I think, loaded in magnum brass and was two WCs topped with a 91 grain LRN designed for the .380 sized to .355 or .356.
    That sounds awesome. Was that in this upcoming Feb 2020 issue, or in last years Feb 2019?

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KizfONaOVV0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pqPBnSYTIc

    Both of those show you a range of 25%-35% increased penetration in clear gel vs. organic gel. A 40% number is an overestimate on my part, but given that clear gel gives you an inflated sense, you'd do better to pick the higher correction factor over the lower.

    Let's see, if we go with the 25% number, average penetration is 12.94", with the 35% number 11.22". Neither of those is ideal.
    Finally got a chance last week to do some calibration testing of my own, specifically focused on the 110 grain WC and my own no-longer-very-Clear-Ballistic gel. Based on that testing, it looks like a calibration factor of 0.81 is reasonable for that bullet in that batch of C-B gel.

    Interestingly (to me, anyway) after making the calibration correction, the double WC .38 Special load penetrates in C-B gel just as the models predict for single projectile loads, (.36 caliber 110 grains @ 600 ft/s penetrates to a little over 12"). This assumes, of course, that the two projectiles separate before entering the gel. It's not hard to make them stick together and over-penetrate.

    Also, of interest is the fact that the 0.81 calibration factor also gave the predicted penetrations for an "equivalent" .44 Special duplex load. In that case, duplex loads consisting of two 150 grain .44 caliber WCs at 600 ft/s averaged 15.2" in my C-B gel. Applying the 0.81 calibration factor gives about 12.3" in real gel. This agrees closely with the mTHOR model prediction for a single 150 grain .44 WC @ 600 ft/s.

    Now, I won't argue that just over 12" of penetration is anything more than "marginal." But I will argue with the notion that a .36 caliber 100 grain bullet at 600 ft/s is "a recipe for under-penetration." Yes, if that bullet is a wadcutter, then it's just knocking at the front door of the FBI 12"-18" range. But trade the wadcutter for a truncated cone and it will penetrate beyond Brassfetcher's 14-16 inch "optimal" range.


    While on the subject of calibrating C-B gel to 10% ordnance gel, I'm wondering how you guys interpret the Lucky Gunner data for .38 Special from a 2" barrel. Applying even a 0.8 calibration factor there, would filter out everything that didn't penetrate at least 15" in the C-B gel. That eliminates everything that expands and from what's left, I'd bet everything except the target wadcutters either tumbles or over-penetrates.
    Last edited by pettypace; 01-14-2020 at 10:08 AM.

  7. #127
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post

    While on the subject of calibrating C-B gel to 10% ordnance gel, I'm wondering how you guys interpret the Lucky Gunner data for .38 Special from a 2" barrel. Applying even a 0.8 calibration factor there, would filter out everything that didn't penetrate at least 15" in the C-B gel. That eliminates everything that expands and from what's left, I'd bet everything except the target wadcutters either tumbles or over-penetrates.
    Hence why most of us have switched to target wadcutters in our snubs.

    I have three loads I use in .38 Special revolvers -

    The 158-grain +P Remington LHP in guns with 2.75” and longer barrels.

    The 135-grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel in guns with 2-2.5” barrels that weigh 16-ounces or more

    The 148-grain Federal Match Wadcutter - in guns that weigh <16 ounces

    When I finally shoot out my supply of Remington LHPs, I will switch entirely to the Gold Dot load or the Winchester Ranger load for all guns, except light snubs which will get the wadcutters. I opt for JHPs in heavier snubs, because I can shoot them as fast and of they fail to expand - eh - same-same as a WC. Penetration has shown to be adequate in ballistics gel testing for the Gold Dot Short Barrel and the Winchester Ranger for me to feel comfortable with those loads.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 01-14-2020 at 10:29 AM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post
    Finally got a chance last week to do some calibration testing of my own, specifically focused on the 110 grain WC and my own no-longer-very-Clear-Ballistic gel. Based on that testing, it looks like a calibration factor of 0.81 is reasonable for that bullet in that batch of C-B gel.

    Interestingly (to me, anyway) after making the calibration correction, the double WC .38 Special load penetrates in C-B gel just as the models predict for single projectile loads, (.36 caliber 110 grains @ 600 ft/s penetrates to a little over 12"). This assumes, of course, that the two projectiles separate before entering the gel. It's not hard to make them stick together and over-penetrate.

    Also, of interest is the fact that the 0.81 calibration factor also gave the predicted penetrations for an "equivalent" .44 Special duplex load. In that case, duplex loads consisting of two 150 grain .44 caliber WCs at 600 ft/s averaged 15.2" in my C-B gel. Applying the 0.81 calibration factor gives about 12.3" in real gel. This agrees closely with the mTHOR model prediction for a single 150 grain .44 WC @ 600 ft/s.

    Now, I won't argue that just over 12" of penetration is anything more than "marginal." But I will argue with the notion that a .36 caliber 100 grain bullet at 600 ft/s is "a recipe for under-penetration." Yes, if that bullet is a wadcutter, then it's just knocking at the front door of the FBI 12"-18" range. But trade the wadcutter for a truncated cone and it will penetrate beyond Brassfetcher's 14-16 inch "optimal" range.


    While on the subject of calibrating C-B gel to 10% ordnance gel, I'm wondering how you guys interpret the Lucky Gunner data for .38 Special from a 2" barrel. Applying even a 0.8 calibration factor there, would filter out everything that didn't penetrate at least 15" in the C-B gel. That eliminates everything that expands and from what's left, I'd bet everything except the target wadcutters either tumbles or over-penetrates.
    I’d be curious to see what kind of penetration you get in gel through a cell phone with a 100 gr wadcutter at 600fps. Or just heavy denim. I’m sure you can get a cheap used smartphone off eBay for testing.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Penetration has shown to be adequate in ballistics gel testing for the Gold Dot Short Barrel...
    Maybe... But the Lucky Gunner tests showed the 135 grain Gold Dots only penetrating 13.6" in C-B gel. With a calibration factor of 0.8 that translates to less than 11" in 10% ordnance gel. In Brassfetcher's testing in validated 10% gel, they were marginal, at best.

    Is there some documented testing where the short barrel Gold Dots do significantly better from a snubby?

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    I’d be curious to see what kind of penetration you get in gel through a cell phone with a 100 gr wadcutter at 600fps. Or just heavy denim. I’m sure you can get a cheap used smartphone off eBay for testing.
    Send me yours. I'll test it for you.

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