LEM
DA/SA
For many of us: Dagga Boy: Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger."Originally Posted by M2CattleCo
Also, the LEM can be shot pretty damn well, as demonstrated by TLG several years ago. IIRC, he set more than one PR with the LEM trigger during his year with it.
Last edited by David S.; 12-23-2019 at 12:53 PM.
David S.
I went with DA/SA (v3) because those are the pistols that I found really good deals on. I've read enough posts on this over the years that I don't think there is a "right" answer. If such an answer existed, HK would probably trim their pistol line.
I've never even had the opportunity to shoot an LEM gun of any sort. So sad.
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From a left handed shooter's perspective the decock button on the DA/SA P30 is in a sub optimal place. I can't reach it with either thumb without breaking my grip. The levers on SIG DA/SA guns and on Beretta G model guns are much easier for me to reach.
I also prefer a simpler manual of arms that doesn't require decocking the gun. I don't mind the LEM trigger as I spent a lot of years shooting DA revolvers and it is very natural to me. I agree with DB that LEM is probably the best "street" trigger set up on a handgun. Not having to decock the gun is icing on the cake.
Last edited by LtDave; 12-23-2019 at 02:07 PM.
The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.
I didn't vote, because I still haven't figured it out. Earlier this year, I decided to focus and get on with it sorting out USPs. Started taking them apart, and have learned a bunch. I've criticized S&W 3rd Gens in the past for being a box with too many levers, etc. crammed into it. Especially in comparison to a classic Sig, which is incredibly simple and elegant with so few parts that work in a beautiful, harmonious dance. USPs are a little like the 3rd gen, but where with the 3rd gen, everything is locked into the one way it was built, the USP trigger system's complexity (and it ain't all that complicated, really) is its strength; different parts all work together properly, and you really can have it your way. Also, where a lot of things require fitting on the S&W 3rd Gen, USP is built with modern manufacturing and tolerances and stuff just drops in and works.
I've set up one pistol with LEM-Match hybrid and done all my normal deburring & smoothing of the moving parts. It's quite smooth, and really decent for LEM, but I was still disappointed with my initial results actually shooting the LEM. Lots of low & left, which is something I had gotten away from awhile ago. I'm unlikely to focus on LEM to the exclusion of all other systems, so I'm motivated to get a DA/SA setup working well. It seems like work done with a good DA/SA USP would both be more beneficial when shooting other systems, and suffer less deterioration when I spend time with other systems.
I have a pretty good hypothesis for why the DA is so crappy. There's what I would do about it if I had or wanted a firearms business and could throw money at designing parts and having them made. Then there's what I'm going to start with, trying to improve the parts that are there. Will report here when I get results. Suffice it to say at this point that the lame DA does not appear to be inherent to the geometry of the design, therefore it should be possible to improve it.
I expect that if I go with DA/SA, it will be V3. I'm also doing a variety of ergonomic mods. I've written elsewhere about the HK45c mag catch and the accommodations required to the part to make it work properly in a non-HK45c pistol. I've messed with shaving the lower corner of the decocking lever so it doesn't put that blister on the inside of my thumb knuckle (eliminating it entirely is an obvious advantage of LEM). And I'm going to try adding material to the trigger shoe to reshape it and make it more like a standard reach Sig trigger (TRIGGER-6).
One option that doesn't get talked about much is the Condition 1 that's possible with USPV1. It's another option for avoiding the DA press, and ambi levers are available for those who require them. With basic smoothing of internal components, the nickel sear spring, and choice of trigger and hammer spring, the SA can be perfectly serviceable. It will never be a good 1911, but it can be as good as most lower-end 1911s and perfectly useable for a service pistol. One good option might even be the Match hammer and standard hammer spring. As far as I can tell, the Match hammer only differs from the standard one in the cut of the sear notch; it doesn't seem to do anything for the DA. The standard blue-background variant chart indicates that V9/10 are DA/SA without decock. It's not clear how you'd ever get into DA mode after chambering a round (it would frankly be silly to choose this detent configuration if you intended to run it that way), although having a functionally SA gun with a DA restrike option might not be the end of the world. For those inclined to run Condition 1, a USP with ambi safety levers if needed and V9/10 detent plate would seem to be worthy of consideration. (Or just KISS and run the most common V1 that way.) In some aspects, kinda like a double-stack 1911 with reliability on par with the best 1911s and price on par with the cheapest single stacks that will usually actually function.
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Not another dime.
Agree. I switched to LEM from a Sig 226 & 229, and it's been a great transition, and I've learned a lot between the two systems. As far as speed is concerned, I know @GJM earned a Turbo Pin from Gabe White with a USP LEM, so that proves speed is possible, if you do the work, although it's not the intended purpose of the system. I only had my P30 V1 for about three months, when I signed up for Gabe's PSS course, and decided to go ahead and use it, even though it was new to me, but I was able to shockingly earn a Dark Pin, from concealment, IWB at 4:00. I had always focused on accuracy, and rarely tried to shoot fast, so I have no idea how I managed to squeak out a Dark Pin with a new trigger system like that, but if I can do it, anyone can. I humbly credited Gabe with being an excellent instructor, pushing us to be our best, aside from that, just a lot of practice, and a little luck!
It's interesting how GJM likes DA on one model, and LEM on another.
Heavy LEM preferred. Cocked and locked with ambidextrous control lever second choice.
Light LEM does not give me better timed results. Heavy LEM does allow me to feel the trigger when my hands are cold or in gloves 6-9 months of the year. So easy choice there.
As a fellow lefty I was going to chime in as well but upon re-reading Lt's post I really think he nailed it. Love my LEM P30L/P30SK/P2000 far and above my USP compacts and most DA/SA guns for simple ease of left handed use. OMMV but I think it is a great system.
On the P30 (SK), DA/SA is not for the faint of heart. It is much heavier (though smooth) than P30L I have for example.
Same as the P2000. The trigger shoe flexes as the DA pull stacks and it all springs loose when the shot breaks.
If they could get the trigger pull weight as light as the decocker they'd have something.
That's one of the things I've noticed is a key difference between HK and classic Sig. The big, thick, steel trigger on the Sigs is orders of magnitude more rigid, in addition to a shape I prefer. The curvature of HK trigger shoes is more like the Sig short reach trigger, which I strongly dislike. Also, because of its more typical configuration and the fact that it's not spring loaded when installing the trigger axle/pin, you can shim it to take up the lateral rattle/play in the frame, which makes it much more secure and solid feeling. Bigger difference than you'd think before trying it.
There may be even more going on with the differences between them, but I haven't had a chance to take them both apart and measure since I brainstormed the possible insight.
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Not another dime.
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