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Thread: What else could the USPSA classification system be like?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    That said, with all its imperfections, the classification generally reflects match placements. I also think that it is a better way to measure things than match performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Is there any objective evidence that it does?
    In regards to the first sentence or the second? If the former, then I think yes. I shoot CO now, we don't have GMs in it locally, only Ms, but it is M class guys who win matches, not me with my A. Incidentally, higher % Ms win, not barely there paper Ms. When I shot Production, it was again GM or high Ms who were winning.

    Here is a link to the Limited Nats results. Choosing Limited simply because it is a long established and popular division. Pretty telling as far as what letters are mostly seen at the top vs middle vs bottom.


    https://practiscore.com/results/new/93422?q_division=2
    Last edited by YVK; 12-21-2019 at 11:52 PM.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  2. #12
    While I generally agree with your belief that the classification system generally works, nationals and area matches are mostly attended by stronger shooters, so you have selection bias at play.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    , nationals and area matches are mostly attended by stronger shooters, so you have selection bias at play.

    If you're including me in that group too, I am gonna get emotional.


    Regardless, I am not worried much about that. I think that a 500 participants match with some selection bias is still a better data than 70 participants local match with a low sample size issues.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  4. #14
    I always wonder how many sandbaggers are really just people on a fast trajectory upwards and classification system is just too slow. I go to a weekly match and we only run a classifier every other week. Local weekend matches don't generally run classifiers. I tend to place worse percentage wise at majors so if those are tacked in my percentage will go down. Plus it's just easy to botch one. In production one C can drop you from a GM to M score. Literally a half inch difference in one shot...

    When you consider a new guy practicing hard could probably change skill level from C to M over the course of a year, I think it unlikely they'd shoot enough classifiers to see that change.

    As far as upper level guys showing up lower in major matches, could easily be a nasty malfunction or just a mistake. They percentages get pretty tight at well attended matches, doesn't take that much to dump you down.

    I've often wondered if the system shouldn't be fixed vs always changing. You sit down with a calculator and figure out hitfactors for GM's. For example you say a GM should have 0.9 draw to an A on an open target at 10 yards, an 0.18 split, a 0.30 transition, and a 1.0 reload. Then you just set a number. I think the numbers of GM's would increase and majors would mainly just be a bunch of GM's duking it out. I've won quite a few plaques for lower class wins and honestly I never get any satisfaction from it. Who gives a shit if you're top C when you get stomped by 40 other competitors anyway?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    I've won quite a few plaques for lower class wins and honestly I never get any satisfaction from it. Who gives a shit if you're top C when you get stomped by 40 other competitors anyway?
    I sorta agree. I focus only on my placement within my division. I don't care about the overall and I don't care about B class either.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    I sorta agree. I focus only on my placement within my division. I don't care about the overall and I don't care about B class either.
    Overall gets useful if you're shooting something oddball and there aren't many people in your division. You won limited 10 at your local but you were the highest class guy anyway, maybe you compare yourself to the SS guys who are major but probably have the same number of reloads or something. You shoot SS minor, maybe you compare yourself to the production guys. Or maybe there is just a super consistent guy and you keep an eye on the percentage delta.

  7. #17
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    What else could the USPSA classification system be like?

    I agree with @YVK and @GJM that the current USPSA classification system mostly works. It's interesting that even though the classification game is quite different from the match game, classification more-or-less reflects match placement. There's a lot of overlap, but the ranks pretty much work. GMs at the top, next Ms, and so on.

    I've usually been able to shoot my classification percentage at State, and Section matches, so that tells me it's working ok for me. When a national-class GM shows up at an Area match, that pushes everyone's % down but I don't get butthurt about it. I think it's awesome to be able to compete in the same matches with the top players in the sport. Should we have a Pro Class for them? Sure, why not?

    I have come to like the classification game, and I like it even more now that only one re-shoot is allowed. I never liked the multiple re-shoot policy. It felt like a cheap way to move up. Now, it amounts to one run for match points, and one for classification. Two games in one.

    I don't think match placement at any one match tells us that much. My goal is to continue to improve.

    I do think USPSA classification is meaningful. It requires a lot of work to move up, and is as good or better a test of of shooting skill as any set short drills could be. The new classifiers are even better.

    Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers? I don't really care about GBs, but sandbaggers piss me off because they take away from the enjoyment of the sport for B and A level shooters.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 12-22-2019 at 12:29 PM.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I don't think match placement at any one match tells us that much.
    I agree. Which is why NSCA requires more than 2 - 3 punches to move up even from the lowest to the next highest class. And the number of punches (class win/place/show points) needed to move up increase as you go up the levels. This schedule requires some pretty consistent performance to move up.

    AA Class to Master Class: 20 punches
    A Class to AA Class: 14 punches
    B Class to A Class: 12 punches
    C Class to B Class: 8 punches
    D Class to C Class: 6 punches
    E Class to D Class: 4 punches

  9. #19
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    I feel like the USPSA classification system works for everyone except the guys at the very top level.

    Ben, JJ, Nils...those guys are GM class...but they're barely the same thing as your local GM.

    Overall a B class guy will still be worse than A class, who won't be as good as M class etc...

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  10. #20
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    I think grandbagging and sandbagging is not a problem. GrandbRagging on the other hand, is
    Last edited by cheby; 12-22-2019 at 03:09 PM.

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