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Thread: How to Grip a Handgun. Robert Vogel

  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Western Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by jeep45238 View Post
    No, he isn't saying that. I'd counter that if your hands are loosing contact with the gun at all when you roll your elbows up, you aren't gripping hard enough (or your grip strength isn't sufficient to begin with). It acts to change the force vectors at the hand/gun interface itself, favoring the top of the grip, which increases the PSI, which increases the friction, all else being the same. Rotating inwards would have the same effect with the friction bias being towards the base of the grip, versus the top.
    Losing contact between the gun and the bottom of the support hand when rolling the elbows outwards is also a sign that the support hand wrist isn't rotated (fwd) away from you as much as it should be. At least for me it is.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter
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    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Losing contact between the gun and the bottom of the support hand when rolling the elbows outwards is also a sign that the support hand wrist isn't rotated (fwd) away from you as much as it should be. At least for me it is.
    And it all goes out the window if your wrists aren't locked. Something I need to work on quite a bit ; in addition to getting my preferred high/forward grip on a 1911 without 'deactivating' the slide stop.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I recommend trying the Vogel technique, because it can be instructive to do things even if you don't like the results.

    For me, rolling the elbows

    1) Is unnecessary for producing sufficient force on the gun
    2) Causes tension and fatigue in my arms and shoulders
    3) Because of (2) reduces my ability to transition quickly, smoothly, and precisely
    4) Doesn't work well in a leaning position where one arm can't be extended as much as the other
    I agree. Rolling the elbows doesn't seem to help me grip the gun more forcefully and it is fatiguing to my arms and shoulders. It also makes me feel like I'm bound up when moving the gun from target to target. It doesn't work at all for me when shooting on the move.
    Last edited by Amp; 01-12-2020 at 01:02 PM.

  4. #14
    I advocate for a similar methodology. I don’t speak for Robert.

    Losing pressure and contact with the lower edges of one’s hand and the lowest portion of the pistol’s grip, incidental to rolling the elbows over, is generally a non-issue for me and those folks that I’ve taught. The gap opens up eventually, irrespective of the expressed grip strength of the hands, once the chest and back muscles are sufficiently engaged; it’s not even a contest. Maximum skin contact with the pistol is a method, not an outcome; and when measuring the efficacy of a shooting grip, outcomes are more properly measured in such terms as relative split times and/or the relative angular deviations or lack thereof in the wrist while firing.

    Wringing pressure applied to the upper reaches of the pistol generally pairs best with a support-hand thumb advanced further forwards, without necessarily having to bend that wrist downwards to the limits of its range of motion. This also deconflicts most slide-stop/release levers , provides for superior trigger management, and creeps the overall shooting grip closer to the boreline thus yielding more efficient recoil management.

    Given the requirement for both arms to be equally extended; whether that be at full extension, a compressed ready position at full-wring for engaging proximal threats, or anywhere in-between the two; it is desirable to work barricades with the choice in leading leg/knee being matched to what side you’re working (e.g. right leg advanced if working a right-side corner) and the shooter deepening their working of it by “lungeing” (e.g. feet remain generally put, lead knee bends more as the shooter drives off of their trailing foot raising the heel as they work deeper into it). The hips remain square with the unknown.
    Jules
    Runcible Works

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