Simplified, three count drawstroke

[scjbash]

Without trying to derail the thread, may i ask what kind of variation in draw time do you folks typically see over the course of your training ? Some days I’m consistently a couple of three tenths faster, same drill, same equipment, then next day I’m back at a bit slower pace.

ETA I can start a separate thread if that’s a better idea.

If I start a shooting session and my draw time is off, and there is no good reason for it like injury, illness, or fatigue, it's almost certainly because of tension. More than likely I've had a rough day of work and chugged a Monster on the way to the range. In my experience shooting with or teaching others it's a common issue.

The next time your draw is slow hit the start button on the timer and then take note of how you feel before the beep. Tension in the back, shoulders, and arms is common. You may feel your shoulders are shrugged. If so, relax. Take a breath, hum a relaxing song, rub your ears and say woosah, whatever works for you. Then see if your draw speed is back where it should be.

[Clusterfrack]

...what kind of variation in draw time do you folks typically see over the course of your training ? Some days I’m consistently a couple of three tenths faster, same drill, same equipment, then next day I’m back at a bit slower pace.

How much variation do I observe? Not much, for just a simple stand and shoot. My draw to a given distance is pretty consistent (+/- 0.0Xs). If I add complications like a lean around a barricade, draw while moving out of position, etc., that can add time and variation.

Consistency is part of skill development, so what you're experiencing is normal--especially if you're working on refining or changing a technique. Subconscious mastery takes time to build or change. "Trying" to be fast often short-circuits consistency and speed. Creating mental focus associated with your on-demand performance can help, especially under pressure.

Here are a few things to try, and some suggestions:

-Practice in Steve Anderson's "speed mode" where pushing your limits is the goal, and accuracy is not a concern. I do NOT do most of my practice in this mode, but it's a good way to remind yourself what really fast feels like.

-Focus on breathing prior and during the draw.

-Listen for the very start of the BEEP.

-Track your progress. As we push the limits of human performance, progress is very slow, and that can get frustrating.

-Don't spend too much time on your draw. I think a consistent 1.2s draw to 2 As at 10-15yds is a solid goal (draw 1.2s, plus split). I totally agree with @GJM that 0.6s scoop draws are mostly a circus trick. I wouldn't use that in a match unless it was a very unusual speed shoot stage. But it was fun!

[JHC]

Without trying to derail the thread, may i ask what kind of variation in draw time do you folks typically see over the course of your training ? Some days I’m consistently a couple of three tenths faster, same drill, same equipment, then next day I’m back at a bit slower pace.

ETA I can start a separate thread if that’s a better idea.

I've seen that too; fairly starkly over the last few months. Tension as noted might be it. Dehydration from festivities the previous night maybe, in my case.

But also temps I think. I got a bunch of blazing quick training sessions late Summer (blazing for me are sub 2.0 F2S clean @ 7 yards, pedestrian for some around here ). Not so much late Fall and now. I seem to think when I get cold I'm slower but that could be tension from being cold.

[Medusa]

Thanks. I’m not chasing .6 draws. For games, I do find that the draw time is important in steel and idpa, maybe more so than USPSA other than classifiers. Since my gaming focus is idpa and steel, the inference is obvious. But what’s most important to me is my speed with my daily carry stuff since that may save my life. So I work that just about every day, and with LASR I now have reliable metrics of time and accuracy for any and every kind of draw work I do.

I’m usually within a few hundredths, .1 at most. Sometimes I’m significantly faster. I will trust it’s part of the process of working to get better, and keep at it.

[Medusa]

But also temps I think. I got a bunch of blazing quick training sessions late Summer (blazing for me are sub 2.0 F2S clean @ 7 yards, pedestrian for some around here ). Not so much late Fall and now. I seem to think when I get cold I'm slower but that could be tension from being cold.

I didn’t think of that. My garage was colder than usual last night. That may well be a factor.

I confess I don’t worry too awful much about what the Joneses are doing, time wise. I do my own thing and seek to achieve the max of what I am capable of. It’s good to see what the truly good can do, and as I hit certain objective milestones I can think, hey, that’s acceptable, but I know this stuff isn’t easy and that the pursuit of whatever excellence or portion of it *I* can achieve is worthy.

[JHC]

I didn’t think of that. My garage was colder than usual last night. That may well be a factor.

I confess I don’t worry too awful much about what the Joneses are doing, time wise. I do my own thing and seek to achieve the max of what I am capable of. It’s good to see what the truly good can do, and as I hit certain objective milestones I can think, hey, that’s acceptable, but I know this stuff isn’t easy and that the pursuit of whatever excellence or portion of it *I* can achieve is worthy.

I don't either but after I type "blazing" hyperbole I realize I'd better qualify that term for moi.

[psalms144.1]

I can remember back in the days when my beard hadn't even started turning silver, and I once got a COM hit on a Transtar IV from the holster in .7 seconds. It was at the end of nearly a week of intense "reactive shooting" training, and we were all on the line drawing and firing at the same time. No concealment, of course, but I was carrying in my daily carry leather OWB holster for the course. All shooting was at the 5 yard line, and the standard was "any hit on the silhouette," so pretty darned forgiving.

We started at 1.5 seconds, targets turned, you either hit the target or you didn't. If you were late, or missed, you stepped back off the line. Then they turned the time down by .1 seconds on the exposure until the last man was standing. He hit three times in a row at .5 seconds, which was as short of an exposure as those targets could accomplish, IIRC.

Two months later, after not having shot a single round after leaving the course, I flubbed a D2 COM in 3 seconds - pretty embarrassing, and shows how perishable all these skills are.

On the issue of this being a parlor trick, I agree - but an awesome one to have in the tool box! 3 hits from the holster in 1 second is truly amazing.

My only concern is prepping the trigger so that the shot breaks at full extension - which presupposes you've already made a conscious, DEFENSIBLE and REASONABLE decision to shoot. For those in LE, I really don't encourage getting on the trigger during the draw-stroke - because we cover people so much more frequently than shooting them. If you develop the "training scar" of prepping your trigger on the way to full extension, that's what you're going to do in a startle situation that requires your gun out, but maybe NOT shooting someone. Especially with SF triggers, there's not a lot of "there there" with regard to the difference between a mature trigger PREP and the loud banging noise.

[GJM]

I can remember back in the days when my beard hadn't even started turning silver, and I once got a COM hit on a Transtar IV from the holster in .7 seconds. It was at the end of nearly a week of intense "reactive shooting" training, and we were all on the line drawing and firing at the same time. No concealment, of course, but I was carrying in my daily carry leather OWB holster for the course. All shooting was at the 5 yard line, and the standard was "any hit on the silhouette," so pretty darned forgiving.

We started at 1.5 seconds, targets turned, you either hit the target or you didn't. If you were late, or missed, you stepped back off the line. Then they turned the time down by .1 seconds on the exposure until the last man was standing. He hit three times in a row at .5 seconds, which was as short of an exposure as those targets could accomplish, IIRC.

Two months later, after not having shot a single round after leaving the course, I flubbed a D2 COM in 3 seconds - pretty embarrassing, and shows how perishable all these skills are.

On the issue of this being a parlor trick, I agree - but an awesome one to have in the tool box! 3 hits from the holster in 1 second is truly amazing.

My only concern is prepping the trigger so that the shot breaks at full extension - which presupposes you've already made a conscious, DEFENSIBLE and REASONABLE decision to shoot. For those in LE, I really don't encourage getting on the trigger during the draw-stroke - because we cover people so much more frequently than shooting them. If you develop the "training scar" of prepping your trigger on the way to full extension, that's what you're going to do in a startle situation that requires your gun out, but maybe NOT shooting someone. Especially with SF triggers, there's not a lot of "there there" with regard to the difference between a mature trigger PREP and the loud banging noise.

A luxury of being a civilian, is I don’t have to point my firearm at anyone or anything I am not intending to shoot.

[Surf]

I continue to fiddle with my draw, in an effort to make it faster and more consistent. I have simplified the drawstroke to three steps:

1) get an initial complete and perfect grip, where you set wrist angle and tension, and obtain full grip tension.

2) meet the bottom of the trigger guard with your support hand.

3) prep the trigger as you extend the pistol.

I think you're on a typical progression that a shooter goes through as skills increase. You are a very high-level shooter and are most likely simplifying the thought process to be able to articulate to others your actual steps of execution and perhaps the critical points like;

1. Setting primary hand grip in the holster
2. Setting support hand grip
3. Trigger prep, muzzle extends, acceptable sight picture.

In reality, your execution is happening at so deep of a level of unconscious competence that any thought process that you are employing is near the range of conscious thought is likely limited to;

1. listening for the B in Beep and;
2. confirming whatever acceptable sight picture necessary to get your hits.

The rest is auto-pilot. So arguably, you are at a two-count draw. Any additional counts, be it three, four, etc., I would argue is just to explain to others the importance of what we deem as critical points in the presentation for success. But for you, your body already gets it.

I might teach a four-count for a newer shooter, especially if they are running level 2-3 retention, and I may quickly trim it down to a three count. For myself, I note two distinct thoughts in my presentation explained above. B in beep, and seeing what I need to see. Two counts, the rest happens. I am sure the same is for you.

For anyone in general reading, the reality is that for competition time is really made up in stage planning, footwork, manipulations, and for our armed citizens/professionals, it is mostly in processing.

[jetfire]

You'd think with that draw speed you'd have been able to make GM pretty easily