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Thread: Simplified, three count drawstroke

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Awesome. Are you guys index shooting that or getting a sight picture?
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    Awesome. Are you guys index shooting that or getting a sight picture?
    Yes.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    Awesome. Are you guys index shooting that or getting a sight picture?
    Hwansik Kim defines 3 types of confirmation:
    1. Index shooting, no visual confirmation
    2. Flash sight picture and/or sight in motion
    3. Stable sight picture

    For me, this was definitely Type 1 confirmation. However, I'm still seeing the sights jumping around as the gun fires. It's not a total surprise where the holes appear. What I can't do is react to what I'm seeing and do very much to change the POI during the string of 3. Maybe try to bring #2 or #3 back toward the center when the first shot doesn't feel/look right? Maybe?
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 12-16-2019 at 10:27 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  4. #14
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Yes.
    I suppose I deserve that. Anyway, I think we have a new “GJM Standard”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Hwansik Kim defines 3 types of confirmation:
    1. Index shooting, no visual confirmation
    2. Flash sight picture and/or sight in motion
    3. Stable sight picture

    For me, this was definitely Type 1 confirmation. However, I'm still seeing the sights jumping around as the gun fires. It's not a total surprise where the holes appear. What I can't do is react to what I'm seeing and do very much to change the POI during the string of 3. Maybe try to bring #2 or #3 back toward the center when the first shot doesn't feel/look right? Maybe?
    Sounds like you are looking through the gun, thanks for that. I’ll give this a whirl on the weekend if the weather holds out.
    Last edited by Clobbersaurus; 12-16-2019 at 10:51 PM.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
    --

  5. #15
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    ...Anyway, I think we have a new “GJM Standard”.
    Not aiming this comment at you Clobber, but I just have to mention that this 'drill' could be dangerous. Before anyone tries to draw in <0.6s and shoot a string of sub 0.20s splits, make totally fucking sure you can do this safely without shooting yourself or anyone else.

    In fact, I don't recommend it unless you are already an M/GM or equivalent. But maybe that's just me being a safety nut...
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  6. #16
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    Without trying to derail the thread, may i ask what kind of variation in draw time do you folks typically see over the course of your training ? Some days I’m consistently a couple of three tenths faster, same drill, same equipment, then next day I’m back at a bit slower pace.

    ETA I can start a separate thread if that’s a better idea.
    Last edited by Medusa; 12-17-2019 at 12:22 AM.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Not aiming this comment at you Clobber, but I just have to mention that this 'drill' could be dangerous. Before anyone tries to draw in <0.6s and shoot a string of sub 0.20s splits, make totally fucking sure you can do this safely without shooting yourself or anyone else.

    In fact, I don't recommend it unless you are already an M/GM or equivalent. But maybe that's just me being a safety nut...
    I 100% agree.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
    --

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapid Butterfly View Post
    Without trying to derail the thread, may i ask what kind of variation in draw time do you folks typically see over the course of your training ? Some days I’m consistently a couple of three tenths faster, same drill, same equipment, then next day I’m back at a bit slower pace.

    ETA I can start a separate thread if that’s a better idea.
    I think that’d be an interesting and worthy discussion to have, whether here or as a tangent.

    As relates to that... I’m way out of practice and don’t think my previous baselines are likely to be applicable. I’ve focused tremendously on other metrics and given myself over mostly to the training of others, and there’s been a trade-off in there. As with everything I write here, I’m held captive by my own frame of reference; and what I do for a living and where my valuations lie stains that through and through.

    I simultaneously see there to be no downside to a robust drawstroke that can be executed faster rather than more slowly, and that speed is not the only measure of a drawstroke. Expanding upon that latter and in example, I favor a drawstroke maximizing the durability of the firing grip as the support of the holster strips away, and the maximizing of measures that the trigger’s operation be maximally a deliberate and conscious activity AND minimize the vulnerability to unconscious influences.

    I am at my slowest when I am doing method-based technical drilling: when I am practicing against the measures of efficiency in movement and the maximizing of muscular advantage in the discrete movements of the collective drawstroke.

    I am at my fastest when I am leveraging the previous drilling and slotting the drawstroke into a larger context, wherein the cognitive focus is not on the draw but in the shooting.

    I am at my most time-ambivalent if I am working an ambiguous or judgement-requiring shooting problem; whether that be deconflicting a mass of unknowns and/or diagnosing a firing solution (backstop, angles, partial obstructions).

    Time as an effectively measurable metric falls away completely when the shooting aspect emerges only as a consequence of some other discipline opening the door: whether that be physicality, fighting (e.g. entangled gunfighting), or speaking. Further down that road, shooting may never emerge if another skillset/toolset accepts primacy, which throws time even further out the window as a means of measurement.

    Sport-specific conditioning for weapons access and the shooting itself has helped me drop my numbers incrementally; but I’ll never beat pure sport numbers, which I do not write with negative aspersions towards. Simplified draw+presentations cut time dramatically; getting onto the trigger more quickly cuts time a little bit more. I just don’t value pure time sufficiently to compromise the legal/ethical/moral constraints that govern my chosen drawstroke for workplace usage and the instruction of others.

    On a more technical note; the cover garments, holsters, preparatory muscular tension, and other worn equipment hugely influence what I can put out at any given moment; and on principle I’d rather not set up for practice overly different from how I intend to wear such, nor compromise the strictness of my drawstroke particulars. Clearing an inelastic hardshell jacket that runs down to the full measure of my hips +/- an insulating layer beneath is mildly different than clearing a button-up, even if the garment clearance method is the same; the requirements of each discrete movement don’t change, but the resistance increases and the failure modes vary.

    Little things like eye orientation, focal point, preparatory muscular tension, and orientation on/off target discreetly affect the times associated with a given drawstroke; and I try to subtly include them in the design of guided practice for the best performance of my folks. How a shooter cues through the movement adds or subtracts a lot of time.
    Jules
    Runcible Works

  9. #19
    I wish I didn’t include the max effort draws in my initial post, as it is a distraction from the main point of this, which is an efficient, repeatable technique for getting the gun out and shooting an accurate shot. USPSA classification and your draw speed are unrelated — shooting three shots in a second is a parlor trick.

    In terms of making your draw more efficient and consistent, RB here is how I break it down, following the three steps. Separate from the three steps, actively listen for the beep, so you react to the beginning of the beep, not the end of it.

    Step one is to move your hand to a perfect grip as quickly as you can. The important part is a perfect grip, because if you cheat that part, it messes up all your shooting afterward. Make sure your holster position is consistent, and get many reps moving to the pistol. Initially you might look down at the pistol to help guide your path, but then transition back to starting with your eyes on your target as soon as possible. Set your full grip tension and wrist angle and tension as soon as you grip the pistol.

    Step two is where your support hand joins the pistol. Make sure that happens efficiently and that your support hand is not chasing the pistol as it extends.

    Step three is where you extend the pistol and prep the trigger, allowing you to break the shot as soon as you are extended.

    I think of the steps as sequential, and the way to be faster is to do each step more efficiently. To address inconsistency, you need to figure out where the variation in your draw is coming from. It could be something as simple as not actively listening for the start of the beep, it might be one of the three steps, or a combination of issues. You might also decide my three steps don’t work for you, and you want to approach the draw differently. Or, that you want to focus your time on other parts of your game that will yield a better return. Nils Jonasson has a glacially slow draw and still routinely kicks all of our asses.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #20
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Not aiming this comment at you Clobber, but I just have to mention that this 'drill' could be dangerous. Before anyone tries to draw in <0.6s and shoot a string of sub 0.20s splits, make totally fucking sure you can do this safely without shooting yourself or anyone else.

    In fact, I don't recommend it unless you are already an M/GM or equivalent. But maybe that's just me being a safety nut...
    No that's real good advice. A few years back just breaking 1.0 for a D1 scared me good. Nothing close to a body part, into the berm, but I don't like life at that ragged edge. Fun to watch all y'all though.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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