Glock 21 Gen 4 Lack of Reliability/Durability?

[GlorifiedMailman]

The earlier LAPD issues had a lot to do with sludge-induced firing pin drag/weak strikes caused by oil being added to one or both holes accessing the firing pin channel, a hold-over from the previous issue gun's (Beretta 92) cleaning and lubrication guidance. That occurred a long time ago-without checking my notes, I think around 2006. The replacement G21 triggerbar designed for LAPD later became the standard one for the G21 .

I discussed in some detail with Larry Vickers (in an email exchange) his "shake and bake sandbag test" which was the origin of his loathing of the G21. While interesting, as I recall I don't believe that he specifically knew, or recalled excactly what G21 generation was "tested;" that's important because Glock incorporated some running changes to the extractors and firing pins which might have caused the "test" to have come out differently. Glocks without the running changes probably colored Vicker's impressions, but I'm pretty sure the changes had been incorporated prior to the sandbag test, and Vickers was likely "testing" an obsolescent G21 (Glock would modify earlier versions into compliance, something Vickers neither apparently was aware of at the time or discussed) Also, the 1911 tested was tested in "hammer down" configuration, limiting the amount of media intruding into the action. Interestingly, Glock themselves provided (and publicized) Gen 3 G21s to an unidentified Tier 1 unit for at least one combat deployment in the sandbox, in which the G21s (according to Glock) were highly successful throughout.

Probably not coincidentally, Glock users in a media-intensive environment (and I'm not referencing newscasters....) use a but plug, either field-expedient (wadded up 100-mile an hour tape in the butt cavity) or purpose designed. Problem averted. According to a source in Glock US back in the day, when I referenced the intent for the butt cavity, I was told it was an intentional egress point for snow, ice or condensate, eminently possible in the European environment for which it was originally designed (Austria/Austrian Army). Use of a plug undoubtedly in my mind produced drastically different and much more operationally successful results in Vickers' "test."

Or it may have simply been a manufacturing/molding expedient to simplify/save money in the molding/manufacturing process; my supposition.

As I recall, the problems experienced by Portland PD with their G21s had everything to do with their issue cartridges, Federal Hydra Shok as I recall. I believe HP White Labs did the testing and analysis and published the findings. Again, that was many years ago, and an earlier version of the Hydra Shok .45 ACP.

I consider Gen 3 (and slightly previous Gen 2.5 ones, the ones with the Gen 3 features except the receiver rail) and subsequent to be exceptionally proven and reliable.

Yeah, they're a bit bulky, and, at least for me, a bit harder to shoot accurately with speed without some serious practice. But exceptionally durable, reliable and accurate.

Best, Jon

Is there anywhere I can find where Glock publicized the G21 being used by a "Tier 1" unit? I'd be very interested in seeing that.

This answer certainly sheds light on a lot of things, especially Vickers' test. I've not been a huge fan of Vickers, especially with how he treated DocGKR, but both of them at one time had regarded the 21 as an unreliable and not durable pistol which got my attention.

It looks like I'm worrying over nothing though.

[GlorifiedMailman]

So, I typed out the response below, and I didn’t delete it in case someone might find it useful, but given the number of these type of threads you have started, I have to question whether you’re sincerely asking or you are trolling us.

If you are sincere, you need to read the following which was posted on the pistol training.com blog by the founder of pistol forum, the late Todd Luis Green.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/...rs-perspective





The issues with LAPD and Portland G 21 or with Gen3s. Not to mention 2006 was 13 years ago. All gun companies have ups and downs in quality. During the mid to thousands all Glock models had some issues due to Glock switching out to new and cheaper suppliers of small parts. At that time clock serial numbers were three letters and three numbers. Sometime after the M prefix Glock change the finish on their slides and began having some issues attributed to tolerance stack and or quality control in their small parts. These issues have since been addressed.


The cults of personality in the gun industry are a topic for their own thread. There are gun personalities in certain circles that will tell you the Springfield Armory XD and 45 is the best polymer frame striker fired 45 auto. Personally I think that’s absolute horseshit but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. You’ve been warned.

The reality is if you shoot anything enough It will break or experience some type of failure. If you educate yourself and perform proper preventative maintenance you can minimize this.

Everyone also has their own definition of “hard use. “ For some people 2200 rounds is a lifetime of shooting for others it is a week or so.

You also need to understand the Glock 21 is a service pistol designed to shoot full power service ammo. If you want to reload for it you will need to duplicate service ammo. If you want it to run reduced power practice loads like those discussed in the recent 45 minor thread You will need to re-spring the gun.

I swear I'm not trolling. Just... OCD about certain things regarding personal defense and job weapons. Thank you for your answer, though. Somehow I missed that blog, but it makes things make a lot of sense.

I plan on reloading duty-powered ammunition for the most part, but I also got an ungodly amount cases of factory loaded stuff. He was stockpiling .45 Auto for decades.

Part of the reason I asked this question at the start was because I'm considering getting a police trade in Glock 21 Gen 4 as a dedicated trainer, and relegating my current 21 to carry. I wouldn't mind changing the configuration of a beater training pistol to run reduced power loads. Basically, I'm about to go all in on the 21 Gen 4 and want to make sure it's a sound decision, and the durability/reliability thing is the only factor that left any question.

[JRB]

Dude, I don't say this to be snarky. But stop fuckin' worrying and just start going to the range!

Sign up for a couple of good pistol classes from P-F recognized instructors. Put your considerable attention and focus on absorbing the most you can out of those classes. Don't be that guy that's asking tons of questions all the time, either.
Just go with the flow, follow the instruction diligently, and take corrections/directions from the instructor as it's given. Ask questions ONLY to ensure clarity and understanding, then drive on. Good instructors are worth the money for a reason and their programs are set up the way they are for a reason. Roll with it when you take those classes.

Stop, stop, stop with the endless 'what if' thinking. Improve your skill with shooting the pistol; not your mind-gaming and forward planning. You seem to have that covered. Developing your shooting skill will answer virtually all of the questions and concerns you've been expressing here.

Once you complete a couple of good pistol classes like that, you'll read these threads again and enjoy an embarrassed chuckle and head-shake at yourself before getting back to your reloading press or dry fire practice.

I would 100% ban yourself from agonizing over the firearms for even 5 more seconds until you get through at least ONE P-F professional's two-day pistol class.
Get a couple of good holsters for your G21. Buy as many factory Glock magazines as you think you need- then buy 10 more. Then buy a Glock tool kit and some spare springs/parts etc and learn how to use them.

Then go to that class, stop worrying and start going to the range!

[HopetonBrown]

I swear I'm not trolling. Just... OCD about certain things regarding personal defense and job weapons.

Spend 2020 being OCD about your shooting. Respond to this post with your current average FAST score and 25 yard B8, then periodically update us on your improvements, because "doubts about 9mm" and "Glock 21 Gen 4 lack of reliability/durability" isn't covering any new ground or improving your chance of going home safe at the end of your shift.

[JonInWA]

Is there anywhere I can find where Glock publicized the G21 being used by a "Tier 1" unit? I'd be very interested in seeing that.

This answer certainly sheds light on a lot of things, especially Vickers' test. I've not been a huge fan of Vickers, especially with how he treated DocGKR, but both of them at one time had regarded the 21 as an unreliable and not durable pistol which got my attention.

It looks like I'm worrying over nothing though.

There was a brief report from Glock's in-house organ in 2003"The Glock Reporter," pp. 1-2 covering the SpecOps deployment of 10 G21s for a 6+-month deployment to what sounds like either Iraq or Afghanistan. The G21s underwent an initial 500 round administrative break-in period, followed by some 3,000 rounds per gun in the actual combat zone, with zero issues. Basic cleaning apparently only occurred some 2-4 times during the deployment. The G21s were either/both carried concealed or in drop holsters. I think there was a slightly more detailed report in one of their Harris Publication Glock Annuals (pretty much the same thing, albeit a bit slicker)

Not a huge test/T&E, but a bit interesting. I tried to scan the article and place here, but no joy. The paraphrasing above covers the essentials.

Bottom line: Yes, you're likely worrying about nothing. Apply gun to practice and training. It, and you, will do just fine.

Best, Jon

[HopetonBrown]

file:///C:/Users/Jonathan%20Stein/Documents/GlockG2103.pdf

file:///C:/Users/Jonathan%20Stein/Documents/GlockG2102%202.pdf

Hey Boomer, we don't have access to the C drive on your PC.

[JonInWA]

Hey Boomer, we don't have access to the C drive on your PC.

No shit, Sherlock! I realized after copy/paste, gave up, and just paraphrased. See revised version above.

Best, Jon

[Jim Watson]

Pooty got some of it.

I recently inherited a large amount of .45 Auto ammunition and reloading supplies. An ungodly amount of factory-loaded rounds, and enough reloading components to last me years of a relatively brisk shooting schedule. The Glock 21 Gen 4 is the only pistol I have that can shoot it at the moment,

I find it noticeably easier to shoot more accurately with the 21. .

Overstudied.
You've got the ammo, you've got the Glock. So wear it out and you tell us how long it lasts.

[HTM]

At that time clock serial numbers were three letters and three numbers. Sometime after the M prefix Glock change the finish on their slides and began having some issues attributed to tolerance stack and or quality control in their small parts. These issues have since been addressed.

FYI

Glock has never outsourced internal parts other than coil springs. All coil springs are now and have been internally made for a several years now.

[HCM]

FYI

Glock has never outsourced internal parts other than coil springs. All coil springs are now and have been internally made for a several years now.

I’d be curious to know the source for this information but regardless of source for their small parts they have had problematic batches of small parts from time to time.