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Thread: Glock 21 Gen 4 Lack of Reliability/Durability?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    I've fallen in love with my Glock 21 Gen 4 and it's 14 shots of .45 Auto. Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

    However, upon reading about it more, I see where over the years the G21 has been poo-poo'd on by two high-profile individuals in particular, and two large police agencies. Portland PD and the LAPD withdrew their G21's from service because of malfunctions, and in Portland's case, some Kaboom incidents. This was in the 2005-2006 time period from what I can gather.

    I've found posts in the same time period from our very own DocGKR in various places also talking about the G21 not being a durable and reliable service-grade pistol. However, I have seen where he's said in more recent years that the G21 Gen 4 is a good pistol, and he recommends it as one of the best choices if an LE agency/department is going to use a .45 Auto pistol (along with the M&P 45 and HK45).

    I've also seen where Larry Vickers decried the G21 in the early 2000's as being "the worst gun Glock makes" and "a dog" after a non-scientific sand test.

    It seems that even DocGKR has given the G21 Gen 4 the stamp of approval, but it's made me start to wonder about it. I thought I'd tap into the pool of experience shared by many here who may have dealt with the G21 professionally (particularly interested in the Gen 4). It's my understanding that certain SWAT teams have used it extensively, and it has been widely issued to many PD's over the years?

    Is this a durable, reliable .45 Auto for the long haul? I would like the answer to be yes based on my very limited sample of the several I've owned over the years, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of those with perhaps more experience than I. I like the idea of a tough, reliable, proven 14-shot .45


    Once again, Really?

  2. #12
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post

    Another factor is that, after months of shooting my G21 Gen 4 side by side with several examples of G17's and G19's, I find it noticeably easier to shoot more accurately with the 21. I don't know why this is considering I have many thousands of more rounds through 9mm Glocks than the 21, but there's no arguing that my hits are better despite the larger recoil. Maybe this will change in the future, but as of now this is the way things are.

    SW CQB 45: Thank you for the feedback. That's good to hear.
    I remember Mas Ayoob writing in an article long ago that he thought the barrels on Glock's 45's were more accurate than their other guns.

    After all my playing with G21's and also shooting a G20 with a 40 S&W barrel, I'm convinced that the large grip and heavy slide that people love to hate is what makes the guns so damn shootable.

  3. #13
    I shot 10,000 rounds a year through several GL21s 1990-1998 no issues.

    I shot 10,000 rounds a year through several GL30s 1998-about 2008 broke 2 slide stop springs, 3 trigger springs (on the same GL30) 2 take down springs.

    I had very little trouble.

    They were all pre light rail pistols.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    I've fallen in love with my Glock 21 Gen 4 and it's 14 shots of .45 Auto. Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

    However, upon reading about it more, I see where over the years the G21 has been poo-poo'd on by two high-profile individuals in particular, and two large police agencies. Portland PD and the LAPD withdrew their G21's from service because of malfunctions, and in Portland's case, some Kaboom incidents. This was in the 2005-2006 time period from what I can gather.

    I've found posts in the same time period from our very own DocGKR in various places also talking about the G21 not being a durable and reliable service-grade pistol. However, I have seen where he's said in more recent years that the G21 Gen 4 is a good pistol, and he recommends it as one of the best choices if an LE agency/department is going to use a .45 Auto pistol (along with the M&P 45 and HK45).

    I've also seen where Larry Vickers decried the G21 in the early 2000's as being "the worst gun Glock makes" and "a dog" after a non-scientific sand test.

    It seems that even DocGKR has given the G21 Gen 4 the stamp of approval, but it's made me start to wonder about it. I thought I'd tap into the pool of experience shared by many here who may have dealt with the G21 professionally (particularly interested in the Gen 4). It's my understanding that certain SWAT teams have used it extensively, and it has been widely issued to many PD's over the years?

    Is this a durable, reliable .45 Auto for the long haul? I would like the answer to be yes based on my very limited sample of the several I've owned over the years, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of those with perhaps more experience than I. I like the idea of a tough, reliable, proven 14-shot .45
    So, I typed out the response below, and I didn’t delete it in case someone might find it useful, but given the number of these type of threads you have started, I have to question whether you’re sincerely asking or you are trolling us.

    If you are sincere, you need to read the following which was posted on the pistol training.com blog by the founder of pistol forum, the late Todd Luis Green.

    http://pistol-training.com/articles/...rs-perspective

    Trust No One: an insider’s perspective
    Trust No One
    by Todd Louis Green, pistol-training.com

    Trying to decide which pistol to buy? If so, you’re probably looking for one that is guaranteed to be durable and reliable. Well, I’ve got bad news for you. There is no such gun. The day when you could point to a particular brand or model and be certain it would work 100% out of the box and last forever is gone.

    After ten years in the firearms industry, including jobs at two major prestigious gun manufacturers, I have come to a very simple conclusion: no one makes a gun that you can be certain will work. Bias and personal preferences aside, most of the major manufacturers are more or less equal nowadays in quality. It wasn’t always that way, but as price became an increasingly important factor in buying decisions of both individuals and government entities, everything changed.

    As major gun companies began losing marketshare to Glock, surveys of customers made it very clear that price was one of the driving factors. So what could gun companies do? They had to start competing on price.

    The result is, throughout the industry, reduced attention to quality. Both companies I worked for, when I started, had a strict policy of test-firing every single pistol that left the factory floor. Each gun was subjected to two or three full magazines of shooting before it was given the stamp of approval. By the time I left each job, both companies had stopped test-firing pistols destined for the commercial (non-law enforcement, non-military) markets … and in some cases, they stopped testing the LE guns, as well. Why? Test-firing costs a lot of money. You need a range, specially trained and equipped employees, and of course, ammo … lots of ammo. Test-firing a pistol easily adds $25 or more to the price you pay at the gun shop.

    But you can guess what happens when companies skip the step in production validating that a product actually works. The number of inferior guns goes way up. Duh! But gun companies are ok with that, because so few handguns ever see 10,000 or even 1,000 rounds of use. Most problems never materialize, or they don’t appear until years down the road when it’s either too late or too bothersome for the owner to deal with. So while gun companies are going to have a higher percentage of guns showing problems, that expense is offset by the savings they get from cutting production costs. In other words, low quality saves them enough money to deal with the occasional squeaky wheel gun owner.

    Some people think that brands and models which have been around a long time are not as subject to these problems. One friend of mine has adopted what he calls The Five Year Rule … he won’t carry or depend on a new design until it’s been on the market for five years so that all the bugs can be worked out. That sounds smart in theory, but in reality it just doesn’t matter. How come? Glad you asked.

    Gun companies are constantly changing their dimensional specifications, materials, parts vendors, and quality control procedures. Beretta, Glock, H&K, SIG, S&W … everyone is making changes all the time and often to major components. The gun you think comes with a precise cold hammer forged barrel made in Europe now may actually come with a much less expensive and totally unproven barrel that was made on an EDM machine in Canada due to a production change made last year. Your pistol of choice might come with that brand new stainless trigger bar (which replaced the tried & tested carbon steel version used for decades) that’s too soft because the manufacturer hasn’t exactly figured out the proper heat treating process yet.

    Doubt it’s true? Go to any brand-specific forum and look around. Complaints abound. Sure, there are still some who drink the kool-aid, and even some who want to force the kool-aid down other people’s throats. But you’ll hear about broken rails and springs at Glock Talk, improperly assembled guns or poor finishes at SIGForum, or mag drops and feeding problems at MP-pistol.com. Not every day, but read about the problems people have experienced over the past few months and you’ll see that no brand is immune to mistakes.

    As for law enforcement agencies, it’s easy to identify departments having one serious problem or another with just about every model of every brand of gun in service if you know where to look and who to talk to. Finish flaking off firing pin blocks, out-of-spec chambers, broken hammer struts … even high-profile customers are subject to problems ranging from the annoying to the catastrophic.

    So perhaps it really is worth the money to spend a fortune on a custom 1911. But wait! Within the past year I’ve seen problem guns come from the biggest and most respected names in the 1911 world like Les Baer, Wilson, and Nighthawk, too. Having a $500 service pistol experience trouble is one thing. If I just plopped down $3,000 for a custom 1911 that couldn’t reliably feed and fire, I would lose my mind.

    You may think I sound like Chicken Little crying “the sky is falling,” but that’s not really true. After all, I carry one of these things (actually, two of them) every single day, too. But I don’t expect any gun to be perfect. Everything gets tested before it leaves the house in my holster. And even then, I’ve managed to suffer breakages and failures in just about every brand of handgun: Beretta, Glock, Heckler & Koch, SIG, Smith & Wesson, and Taurus.

    picture borrowed from excaliburworld.comWe want to believe that the gun we carry is Excalibur, perfect in every way and indestructible. Truth is, most of the (insert your favorite brand here) guns being produced will never give you a bit of trouble. But they are all mechanical devices designed and built by humans, subject to the same Mr. Murphy as everything else in life. There are no exceptions. We should stop pretending otherwise.


    The issues with LAPD and Portland G 21 or with Gen3s. Not to mention 2006 was 13 years ago. All gun companies have ups and downs in quality. During the mid to thousands all Glock models had some issues due to Glock switching out to new and cheaper suppliers of small parts. At that time clock serial numbers were three letters and three numbers. Sometime after the M prefix Glock change the finish on their slides and began having some issues attributed to tolerance stack and or quality control in their small parts. These issues have since been addressed.


    The cults of personality in the gun industry are a topic for their own thread. There are gun personalities in certain circles that will tell you the Springfield Armory XD and 45 is the best polymer frame striker fired 45 auto. Personally I think that’s absolute horseshit but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. You’ve been warned.

    The reality is if you shoot anything enough It will break or experience some type of failure. If you educate yourself and perform proper preventative maintenance you can minimize this.

    Everyone also has their own definition of “hard use. “ For some people 2200 rounds is a lifetime of shooting for others it is a week or so.

    You also need to understand the Glock 21 is a service pistol designed to shoot full power service ammo. If you want to reload for it you will need to duplicate service ammo. If you want it to run reduced power practice loads like those discussed in the recent 45 minor thread You will need to re-spring the gun.
    Last edited by HCM; 12-10-2019 at 03:03 AM.

  5. #15
    my G30SF, G41 and G21 gen 4 have all been 100% reliable over combined ~5k rounds. zero stoppages. if 45acp is the plan I would absolutely carry any of the glock models. the M&P 45 gen 1 was also a fine shooting pistol but the G41 made it irrelevant to me.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post

    However, I prefer to look at not only how my personal experience with a small sample size performs, but also how a pistol model performs in large issued numbers to determine whether it's truly proven to be durable and reliable or not.

    What does it matter what other Glock 20 ones do. If the one you have works run with it

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooty View Post
    Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.
    That's bullshit. The process doesn't change from one cartridge to another. As far as brass life goes, I haven't seen a huge difference between the two.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    My old agency transitioned from the Sig P220 to the G21 around 1995-1996 (can't remember exactly since I've slept a time or two since then). We initially had major reliability problems with the guns. This was due entirely to a defective magazine design. Glock admitted to knowing about it after the fact and took about six months to get new mags out to us (the primary reason why I've never owned a Glock and probably never will). After the new mags arrived the guns gave good service. The only complaint came from girly handed types who didn't like the size. I was on SWAT at the time and my sample had a round count numbering in the many thousands when I turned it in years later, far more than the majority of 21s will ever see. In all that time I can only remember one light primer strike. Overall, the gun was liked enough by the troops that when replacement time came it was succeeded by the G21SF. I wouldn't worry about it.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooty View Post
    Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.
    Fewer steps compared to what? Not compared to any other straight walled handgun cartridge.

    45 ACP brass doesn't last any longer, on average, than any other straight walled pistol cartridge case when it comes to how many times it can be reloaded.

  10. #20
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    The earlier LAPD issues had a lot to do with sludge-induced firing pin drag/weak strikes caused by oil being added to one or both holes accessing the firing pin channel, a hold-over from the previous issue gun's (Beretta 92) cleaning and lubrication guidance. That occurred a long time ago-without checking my notes, I think around 2006. The replacement G21 triggerbar designed for LAPD later became the standard one for the G21 .

    I discussed in some detail with Larry Vickers (in an email exchange) his "shake and bake sandbag test" which was the origin of his loathing of the G21. While interesting, as I recall I don't believe that he specifically knew, or recalled excactly what G21 generation was "tested;" that's important because Glock incorporated some running changes to the extractors and firing pins which might have caused the "test" to have come out differently. Glocks without the running changes probably colored Vicker's impressions, but I'm pretty sure the changes had been incorporated prior to the sandbag test, and Vickers was likely "testing" an obsolescent G21 (Glock would modify earlier versions into compliance, something Vickers neither apparently was aware of at the time or discussed) Also, the 1911 tested was tested in "hammer down" configuration, limiting the amount of media intruding into the action. Interestingly, Glock themselves provided (and publicized) Gen 3 G21s to an unidentified Tier 1 unit for at least one combat deployment in the sandbox, in which the G21s (according to Glock) were highly successful throughout.

    Probably not coincidentally, Glock users in a media-intensive environment (and I'm not referencing newscasters....) use a but plug, either field-expedient (wadded up 100-mile an hour tape in the butt cavity) or purpose designed. Problem averted. According to a source in Glock US back in the day, when I referenced the intent for the butt cavity, I was told it was an intentional egress point for snow, ice or condensate, eminently possible in the European environment for which it was originally designed (Austria/Austrian Army). Use of a plug undoubtedly in my mind produced drastically different and much more operationally successful results in Vickers' "test."

    Or it may have simply been a manufacturing/molding expedient to simplify/save money in the molding/manufacturing process; my supposition.

    As I recall, the problems experienced by Portland PD with their G21s had everything to do with their issue cartridges, Federal Hydra Shok as I recall. I believe HP White Labs did the testing and analysis and published the findings. Again, that was many years ago, and an earlier version of the Hydra Shok .45 ACP.

    I consider Gen 3 (and slightly previous Gen 2.5 ones, the ones with the Gen 3 features except the receiver rail) and subsequent to be exceptionally proven and reliable.

    Yeah, they're a bit bulky, and, at least for me, a bit harder to shoot accurately with speed without some serious practice. But exceptionally durable, reliable and accurate.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 12-10-2019 at 03:51 PM.

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