.22 TCM as a low recoil defensive cartridge

[spyderco monkey]

By the same logic, tbe .32NAA (which I poo-poohed here recently) might make sense too, in a PM9 sized gun.

Sans giant fireball, and with more ammo availability, and a PM9-like platform...sure, I'm with you.

I always liked the idea of .32 NAA. Unfortunately, while it does offer better penetration potential then .380 due to the higher sectional density of the .312 projectile, its still really of threshold level performance due to its lack of energy. And of course, for the low recoil factor, the other problem is that most .380's are tiny and have a fair amount of recoil.

But along those lines, another promising option is .30 Luger. This is the 9x19 version of the .32 NAA.



Most 9x19 pistols can be converted to .30 Luger, making it an easy low recoil option.

.30 Luger = 85gr @ 1250fps / 295 ftlbs = Power Factor 106

While this is more then the PF 80 of .22 TCM and PF 90 of .380 it's still a good bit less recoil then the PF 145 of most standard defensive 9x19.

A 85gr .308 has a sectional density of 0.128, nearly identical to the sectional density of 0.13 for a 115gr 9mm. And at 1250fps / 295 ftlbs of energy, we would have every expectation of reliable expansion and penetration using a well designed JHP.

The only fly's in the ointment being the lack of factory defensive .30 Luger JHP and .30 luger conversion barrels.....

[Tokarev]

I always liked the idea of .32 NAA. Unfortunately, while it does offer better penetration potential then .380 due to the higher sectional density of the .312 projectile, its still really of threshold level performance due to its lack of energy. And of course, for the low recoil factor, the other problem is that most .380's are tiny and have a fair amount of recoil.

The Brass Fetcher video linked above shows over 13" of penetration from a .312 85gr XTP while a 90gr .355 Gold Dot gives only 10.3"

There may have been some heavy clothing tests and/or stats given but I wasn't able to read his charts on my phone. But it seems in most cases the layers of clothing reduce bullet velocity thereby slowing initial expansion and helping with penetration. Depending of course on initial velocity the clothing can sometimes reduce bullet speed below its expansion threshold and/or plug the cavity.





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[spyderco monkey]

The Brass Fetcher video linked above shows over 13" of penetration from a .312 85gr XTP while a 90gr .355 Gold Dot gives only 10.3"

There may have been some heavy clothing tests and/or stats given but I wasn't able to read his charts on my phone. But it seems in most cases the layers of clothing reduce bullet velocity thereby slowing initial expansion and helping with penetration. Depending of course on initial velocity the clothing can sometimes reduce bullet speed below its expansion threshold and/or plug the cavity.

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As I mentioned, while .32 NAA is an improvement over .380, its still a 'threshold' caliber, where we will see some expanding and penetrating, others failing to expand, others failing to penetrate deep enough.

Brassfetcher considers it ballistically identical to .32 H&R Mag, and .32 h&r offers us some ballistic gel to show this effect:



https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ed-32-magnums/

Through heavy clothing, 1x load meets penetration and expansion requirements; 1x expands and under penetrates; 1x fails to expand.

Speaking to this threshold performance, the 85gr Black Hills that did the best in the American Rifleman test above fails to expand in LuckyGunners test of the same load; only difference being 30fps.


https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...caliber-is-32/

We see similar threshold performance in .380 as well:

[Tokarev]

Different test media used. One was synthetic gel with the other being natural.

The XTP as loaded by Black Hills appeared to expand as expected while the same bullet as loaded by Federal did not. Velocity average for both is about 920 fps from the LCR. Does that mean that Hornady is making two different bullets for these or are we seeing manufacturing variables at play? A couple shots in gel really isn't enough data to fully condemn or endorse. But probably what this means is the XTP at just a tad over 900 fps is at its minimum expansion velocity.

Still, the variety of 32 H&R did as well (maybe better) than can be expected from a ridiculously short barrel and may be a better choice over the same sized firearm in 38 SPL.

These teeny tiny little guns are all a worst case scenario and are "comfortable" rather than "comforting." But if I can find something that will probably penetrate and maybe expand it would probably be my choice over some other stuff that probably won't penetrate whether it expands or not.

Interesting stuff and very fun to debate.


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[Velo Dog]

A sub-variant, the 22 TCM 9R, with a shorter, more deeply-seated bullet, is designed for use in Glock magazines limited to standard-length 9mm cartridges. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_TCM

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...-9r-cartridge/

[Jim Watson]

I've seen one of those, shot it a little. Loud report, little recoil.

Two things to consider, do you think it is adequate or necessary? (Cooper once recommended the Jet to an expedition to a land where only .22s were legal for private possession.)
And, how much shooting will it take to establish reliability?

[Velo Dog]

Around the 5 minute 9 second mark "The fireball is just unbelievable."

[TiroFijo]

I've seen one of those, shot it a little. Loud report, little recoil.

Two things to consider, do you think it is adequate or necessary? (Cooper once recommended the Jet to an expedition to a land where only .22s were legal for private possession.)
And, how much shooting will it take to establish reliability?

Most countries (all?) that restrict calibers to 38 spl, 380, or below for handguns, also prohibit expanding ammo, making high velocity/small calibers such as this moot for defensive purposes.

[JHC]

How’s the noise and muzzle blast? a quick search found this:

“Recoil was next to negligible, but the muzzle blast was more than magnificent. Fireballs of .44 Mag. proportions were generated, but there was no intense pressure slap in the face. More importantly, I was hitting what I aimed at.”

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...tcm-cartridge/

Blast tends to increased the impression of recoil, especially for inexperienced shooters.

It does sound fun. :-)

I like everything about that!

I was barely aware of the cartridge, barely on my radar.

[Tokarev]