The Semi-Unofficial Pistol-Forum Car geek, gearhead, hot rodder, and vehicle thread

[JRB]

SN95's are honestly surprisingly solid. Sure the Fox chassis DNA is obvious down there but I feel like Ford did a great job optimizing them, and it's pretty surprising what you can get done with basic spring+shock upgrades, and especially if you get into additional stuff like panhard bars and subframe connectors. I've driven plenty of Fox, SN95, and New Edge Mustangs making 1000+whp and if it's a drag car you want, they do great there. But for auto-x and most SCCA classes and similar handling-oriented builds, ~400whp is about as much as you'll ever need - or be able to make, depending on the class rules. With modern rubber and suspension it's surprising how good those older Mustangs can do at racetrack games.

But regardless of chassis, cars north of 1000whp just make the world really small and are honestly hard to enjoy in most street settings. You need a BIG gap in highway traffic or a basically deserted on-ramp and highway to really whomp on them at all. It becomes harder to enjoy and it's just a game of balancing worries - eyeballing gauges to make sure the crazy beast of an engine isn't overheating, nervousness about traffic/unexpected road hazards/cops/etc.

The struggle with 90's cars or old muscle cars is that dumping even half that HP into most of them make them wildly unbalanced as a car. The suspension, brakes, etc are all terrifying for anything genuinely north of 500-600whp in most cases. So all of those factors need to be addressed as thoroughly as the engine build itself, but few really do that.

Once that's handled, my personal favorite threshold for most RWD cars is ~750whp or so. Modern top-shelf performance tires and thoughtful selections with suspension, etc can make it a genuinely driveable and enjoyable car at that HP level.
Much past that and you have to start making significant changes to the car for the sake of traction and straightline stability, and that rapidly starts changing the car from 'fun' to 'scary' or 'feels like work' to drive it.

Modern chassis like the S550 Mustang and others tend to do much better with boatloads of HP, but most of them bring a weight penalty as well, especially the Dodge stuff. Fairly common to see a ~750whp Vette walk a ~950whp Hellcat, for power:weight reasons as well as gearing and aero.

So for lightness, handling, simplicity, and just pure enjoyment - there's a shitload of value in the SN95 and New Edge Cobras these days, and @Suvorov has a hell of a nice example!

[OlongJohnson]

Modern chassis like the S550 Mustang and others tend to do much better with boatloads of HP, but most of them bring a weight penalty as well, especially the Dodge stuff. Fairly common to see a ~750whp Vette walk a ~950whp Hellcat, for power:weight reasons as well as gearing and aero.

Don't know if this line is still technically accurate, but it was 15-20 years ago when it was created.


What's the difference between a 1000 hp Supra and a 700 hp Supra?

Nothing. They both run 10s.

[Bucky]

Modern chassis like the S550 Mustang and others tend to do much better with boatloads of HP, but most of them bring a weight penalty as well, especially the Dodge stuff. Fairly common to see a ~750whp Vette walk a ~950whp Hellcat, for power:weight reasons as well as gearing and aero.

Truth. Test after test I see the 495 HP C8 Corvette pull away from 700+ HP Hellcats from a dead stop. Rolling races are a different story, but I’m betting the upcoming Z06 will take care of that.

[0ddl0t]

What's the difference between a 1000 hp Supra and a 700 hp Supra?

Nothing. They both run 10s.

3 honks from a roll...

[TOTS]

SN95's are honestly surprisingly solid. Sure the Fox chassis DNA is obvious down there but I feel like Ford did a great job optimizing them, and it's pretty surprising what you can get done with basic spring+shock upgrades, and especially if you get into additional stuff like panhard bars and subframe connectors. I've driven plenty of Fox, SN95, and New Edge Mustangs making 1000+whp and if it's a drag car you want, they do great there. But for auto-x and most SCCA classes and similar handling-oriented builds, ~400whp is about as much as you'll ever need - or be able to make, depending on the class rules. With modern rubber and suspension it's surprising how good those older Mustangs can do at racetrack games.

But regardless of chassis, cars north of 1000whp just make the world really small and are honestly hard to enjoy in most street settings. You need a BIG gap in highway traffic or a basically deserted on-ramp and highway to really whomp on them at all. It becomes harder to enjoy and it's just a game of balancing worries - eyeballing gauges to make sure the crazy beast of an engine isn't overheating, nervousness about traffic/unexpected road hazards/cops/etc.

The struggle with 90's cars or old muscle cars is that dumping even half that HP into most of them make them wildly unbalanced as a car. The suspension, brakes, etc are all terrifying for anything genuinely north of 500-600whp in most cases. So all of those factors need to be addressed as thoroughly as the engine build itself, but few really do that.

Once that's handled, my personal favorite threshold for most RWD cars is ~750whp or so. Modern top-shelf performance tires and thoughtful selections with suspension, etc can make it a genuinely driveable and enjoyable car at that HP level.
Much past that and you have to start making significant changes to the car for the sake of traction and straightline stability, and that rapidly starts changing the car from 'fun' to 'scary' or 'feels like work' to drive it.

Modern chassis like the S550 Mustang and others tend to do much better with boatloads of HP, but most of them bring a weight penalty as well, especially the Dodge stuff. Fairly common to see a ~750whp Vette walk a ~950whp Hellcat, for power:weight reasons as well as gearing and aero.

So for lightness, handling, simplicity, and just pure enjoyment - there's a shitload of value in the SN95 and New Edge Cobras these days, and @Suvorov has a hell of a nice example!

100% agree with everything above. I left the mustang game in 2007 after two 1967 mustangs, a 2000 GT with everything aftermarket and a Vortech T-trim, and a 2003 Cobra that went through several iterations including Kenne Bell twin screw making 650/570. Good for back then. I left the game for team Corvette and now, I’m building an old 70s muscle car. Stepping waaaayy down with the power and way up on brakes.

@Suvorov that’s one of my favorite cars ever built. I went new edge as my good friends already had a 97 Cobra and 98 Saleen but the 98 Cobra in Saleen gear was (still is) on my lust to build list. And no need to go LS; he went HP twin turbos a decade ago and was making 950 wheel. Centrifugal superchargers were so popular as the rising boost curves aided in traction.

I will add for general knowledge that for a serious track/ autocross fox/SN95/new edge mustang, Maximum Motorsports is the absolute BEST for any serious suspension needs utilizing the stock frame. None better.
https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Default.aspx

[Welder]

I will add for general knowledge that for a serious track/ autocross fox/SN95/new edge mustang, Maximum Motorsports is the absolute BEST for any serious suspension needs utilizing the stock frame. None better.
https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Default.aspx

That's pretty cool; they and Griggs were the main games in town 20+ years ago as well. I had a couple of the less expensive MM parts on the old Fox body that I autocrossed a few times. Glad to see they survived and are doing well.

My favorite Stang is still the Fox notchback. Clean, simple lines without all the extra swoops, frills, and jellybean looks that later generations went through, fun to drive even with just 225 hp and a T-5. I had two of them. With just the 5-star Ponies and tinted windows, they had a mean look that wasn't the product of any obvious in-your-face design elements on Ford's part. Today's designers could learn something from that.

[JRB]

Don't know if this line is still technically accurate, but it was 15-20 years ago when it was created.


What's the difference between a 1000 hp Supra and a 700 hp Supra?

Nothing. They both run 10s.

Where's my old 'sad lol' meme?
It was true then because of trends in available wheels and tires - nobody's cutting a decent 60ft time on 250 treadwear 19in tires. The understanding of camber curves and getting the factory IRS to play nice with drag racing, avoiding wheel hop, etc has also been completely sorted out. MKIV Supras with moderate prep and appropriate tires have done high 10's on the stock turbos. The stock US spec ECU and fuel system has been in the 10's on race gas, with a single turbo conversion along with some basic weight reduction and sensible tire selection of course.

The current outright manual trans drag racing record holder is the Grannas Racing Supra called 'Orange Man Bad' - it has a proper Tremec 6 spd 3 pedal manual, still IRS even, and it's deep in the 6's. The Tremecs are getting very popular now with the Supra crowd since parts for the original V160 Getrag 6-spd are long discontinued and wildly expensive.

100% agree with everything above. I left the mustang game in 2007 after two 1967 mustangs, a 2000 GT with everything aftermarket and a Vortech T-trim, and a 2003 Cobra that went through several iterations including Kenne Bell twin screw making 650/570. Good for back then. I left the game for team Corvette and now, I’m building an old 70s muscle car. Stepping waaaayy down with the power and way up on brakes.

@Suvorov that’s one of my favorite cars ever built. I went new edge as my good friends already had a 97 Cobra and 98 Saleen but the 98 Cobra in Saleen gear was (still is) on my lust to build list. And no need to go LS; he went HP twin turbos a decade ago and was making 950 wheel. Centrifugal superchargers were so popular as the rising boost curves aided in traction.

I will add for general knowledge that for a serious track/ autocross fox/SN95/new edge mustang, Maximum Motorsports is the absolute BEST for any serious suspension needs utilizing the stock frame. None better.
https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Default.aspx

MM is great stuff, but some of their competitors have stepped up as well. One of my favorite 'all around' Mustangs ever was an old friend's Mineral Grey 01 GT, had a Vortech V1 with all the supporting mods for ~450whp or so, and basically the whole MM catalog under the car with a set of killer big brakes and fat 17's all around - 275/40 front and 285/40 rears IIRC. Not many 285/40 17's available anymore.

Hellion's based out of ABQ so I've seen a LOT of Hellion twin turbo Mustangs and similar. Overall they're effective and a good value for the money, but the manifold/hotside piping designs leave a lot to be desired on a lot of their kits, even with the packaging constraints of modern engine bays. But being a Supra guy I'm picky about that stuff.

That's pretty cool; they and Griggs were the main games in town 20+ years ago as well. I had a couple of the less expensive MM parts on the old Fox body that I autocrossed a few times. Glad to see they survived and are doing well.

My favorite Stang is still the Fox notchback. Clean, simple lines without all the extra swoops, frills, and jellybean looks that later generations went through, fun to drive even with just 225 hp and a T-5. I had two of them. With just the 5-star Ponies and tinted windows, they had a mean look that wasn't the product of any obvious in-your-face design elements on Ford's part. Today's designers could learn something from that.

You're far from alone in that opinion. LX 5.0 notchbacks are the hardest Foxbodies to find in good shape, and thereby the most expensive by far. I can still occasionally find a decent 89-93 GT 5.0 for the $4-6k range, but it's been years since I've seen a decent LX 5.0 Notch under 9-10k or so that wasn't a basket case.

Personally I love a tinted, lowered LX notch on Cobras or FR500's.

[BehindBlueI's]

Is anything FWD or FWD biased AWD worth driving "for fun" these days, or is torque steer still ruining them?

[RevolverRob]

Is anything FWD or FWD biased AWD worth driving "for fun" these days, or is torque steer still ruining them?

Civic Type R

[Suvorov]

Personally I love a tinted, lowered LX notch on Cobras or FR500's.

There was a near perfect 93 Teal Blue Cobra on Bring a Trailer a month ago that I really came close to bidding on and wend for just north of 30K. These things are going to just get more and more expensive as us children of the 80s near retirement.