The Semi-Unofficial Pistol-Forum Car geek, gearhead, hot rodder, and vehicle thread

[CraigS]

Man, if they’d just make an STI version with the WRX engine or just put a turbo on the BRZ engine, it’d be bad ass.

But from a market segment standpoint, seems like they keep these models in their respective performance segment to push people into the other cars if they want more. They could’ve put out a turbo version of the BRZ/GR86 years ago.

I still can’t for the life of me understand why they completely outsourced the Supra to BMW. They could have built a sick Supra around the 310hp engine in the Lexus IS350.

I agree. Ad 100hp to the BRZ/86, a little more tire, bump the price $3-4000 seems to me would be a winner. I just saw the Motorweek test of the new hot version to the 86 and they raved about everything for 10 minutes....until they said it has the same engine. The Supra is in at least 2 steps up price class. And then they came out w/ X HP the first year and added 40HP I think in the second year, BONEHEAD move. How pi$$ed would I be if I rushed out to be one of the first Supra buyers and then got boned the next year? And maybe I am prejudiced for Japanese quality but when I saw that X% of the Supra was by BMW, my thought was, not me.

[hufnagel]

minivan got a new water pump today.
went about as rough as expected.
install videos all talked about grinding away a bit of the nose on the new pump.
I didn't like that idea.
figured out I can unbolt the front and passenger mounts, and drop the engine down enough to get the pump out.
broke 1 of the bolts holding the pump in. seems to be a very common event.
since i'm NEVER doing this job again on this vehicle, I went VERY liberal with the grey RTV around the entire flange.
will fill the system sometime tomorrow, giving the RTV plenty of time to cure.
also broke a front engine mount bolt. so now it's only held in with 1.5 bolts. (don't ask)
figured out that yes the AC compressor clutch had roached itself. not sure if I'll attempt to repair that.
belt tensioner has failed, but there's still enough drag to spin all the accessories, most of the time.

[JRB]

Being an established Supra guy and having owned at least one of them since 1999, I've got some very opinionated but experienced and knowledgeable thoughts on the below discussions

I think the LFA's poor sales (Toyota finally sold the last one last year - 11 years after production ended) made them a bit wary of developing the Supra in house.

I emphatically disagree; Toyota upper management and bean counters were stuffy and upset about the ROI on the JZA80, in that Tundras, 4Runners, and Priuses were high-profit money printers and sports cars like the Supra were not. They totally misjudged the US Market time and again with boneheaded moves like never putting the 2ZZ-GE in the MR2 Spyder, and advertising the 7th gen Celica with 'looks fast'. Then the Scion fiascos. Then the new 86 and its myriad of identities and mistakes.

Toyota, as a whole, seems to develop sports cars in a vacuum, with no comparison or thought of other offerings in the market from other brands. This is why, in my opinion, Toyota tend to be perpetually underpowered in stock form. Toyota seems to have a holistic 'that's enough HP' approach to everything with nary a thought to real-world competition in other showrooms. Hence, the 2020 Supra getting an embarrassing 335hp stock. Lexus F models are similarly afflicted with lower HP in their respective classes as well.

But back to the Supra specifically - a few years prior to the release of the 2020 Supra, Toyota executives quietly visited the largest Supra meet in the US. Several senior 'Supra OGs' got candid conversations with those guys, including myself. I had a chance to sit in the FT-1 concept car, talk to the Calty design studio folks, overall it was a good interaction. The message from all of the old Supra guys was the same: 100% Toyota, manual transmission, make it tunable. Preferably I6 and 6MT but no compromise on those first three tenets.
Comparisons to the BMW 335i came up - "If a BMW was good enough to replace our JZA80 Supra, we'd have bought one by now".
Little did we know that Toyota had already started with the badge-engineered BMW Z4 by that time. Toyota execs simply pivoted their marketing strategy and disregarded most of the existing enthusiast base as a result.

There were/are arguments that it 'would be too expensive' for Toyota to have developed a Supra in-house. It's absolutely pants-on-head retarded to say that. Toyota has (last I checked) close to $200 billion available in development capital. More than all the other automakers combined, at least for a time.
So it wasn't a matter of it being too expensive; it was a matter of counting beans and doing it as cheaply as possible because Toyota's in the business of selling transportation appliances, and simply didn't have the soul, passion, or interest in building an all-Toyota 'MKV' Supra unless it was going to sell like 4Runners for the next 15 years.
So going havsies with BMW kept the Z4 alive, BMW paid handsomely for Toyota hybrid tech, and Toyota got the monkey off the back with people bitching for a new Supra. It was minimal effort.

Also, without going into a huge rant here - having worked on many B58 BMW's prior to the 2020 Supra's release, several 2020+ Supras, and some newer BMW's after, the new Supra is absolutely 100% BMW hard parts. Chassis, suspension, brakes, powertrain, etc all 100% BMW parts bin stuff. Right down to 5x112 hubs, wheel bolts instead of studs, and struts instead of the double-wishbone suspension of the older JZA80 Supra.
But where Toyota came in was Toyota curated the best of BMW's parts bin for the sake of durability. The B58 in the 2020 Supra had more BMW //M esque reinforcements than most of the //M trim models BMW offered, despite being the two-port lower HP cylinder head. 2021 solved that with the 6 port head and base power jumped from 335 to 380-something, but the BMW DME (ECU in BMW speak) got further security and lockdown enhancements close to the same time, which significantly complicated tuning for 2021+ models. There was a sweetheart few months of early 2021's that got the better cylinder head but older tuneable DME.

Then a few years later they finally pulled their heads out of their ass and put a 6MT manual in it. Still, It's a BMW with a Toyota badge, and Toyota parts support, service, etc struggles with those cars. Three fellow Supra guys that I directly know ended up with 2021's that got lemon-law buybacks because of failing piston rings in brand new cars. Toyota techs absolutely hate the new Supra because it's a BMW and basically none of the dealer-level ECU diagnostic tools or hand tools or special service tools have any commonality with any other Toyota. Plus they tend to have stupid problems with hard parts because BMW loves to make shit out of plastic that should be metal of some kind.

Man, if they’d just make an STI version with the WRX engine or just put a turbo on the BRZ engine, it’d be bad ass.

But from a market segment standpoint, seems like they keep these models in their respective performance segment to push people into the other cars if they want more. They could’ve put out a turbo version of the BRZ/GR86 years ago.

I still can’t for the life of me understand why they completely outsourced the Supra to BMW. They could have built a sick Supra around the 310hp engine in the Lexus IS350.

The GT86 project got stuck with the FA20 and stayed NA because of Toyota's development goals of it replacing the old AE86 Corolla GT-S. They wanted a nimble lightweight small engined car that'd do great on all those Japanese mountain roads, and since the collaboration with Subaru was part of the chassis building, Toyota let them supply the engine as well; Toyota simply added the rear diff and 6MT from the IS300/Altezza and the D4-S port/direct injection hybrid system on top of it.
Nothing stopped them from using a turbo FA20 from Subaru or using a 2GR-FSE V6 from an IS350 except the will to do so, again wildly misunderstanding the US and global markets. They'll also never know how they wildly missed out on sales to drift enthusiasts because the 5x100 hubs borrowed from base WRX's and Celicas didn't match the almost universal drift car standard 5x114.3 hubs. Drift guys tend to have lots of wheels, and nobody wants to re-buy all new wheels to match a new car because the lug pattern changed. The FA20 got further problems with the final development getting it through EU emissions standards which kneecapped the low/mid torque delivery the flat-4 was supposed to deliver, which is why all the older GT86's with the 2.0L tend to be gutless below 4k and then hit the rev limiter at 7500ish just as the party is finally starting.

I remember reading you cant put the turbo in the brz to make it wrx power do to physical space limitations?

That simply isn't true - there's lots of ways to add a turbo or supercharger to those cars. Around 2015-2016 or so there were more than 40 different aftermarket turbo kits available for the FRS/BRZ/GT86.
The downside is the factory bottom end and factory trans aren't very strong (6MT trans is basically the same as found in the RX8, 3S-GE Altezza, etc) so wise tuners will keep things around 300-350whp max on stock hard parts.
Back when I was in the go-fast industry, we installed dozens of turbo kits and did various builds on FRS/BRZ projects. My personal favorite was the now discontinued HKS Supercharger at about 280-300whp with an equal length header running to the stock exhaust. The FA20 might be one of the worst sounding engines I've ever heard in a performance car, and leaving it all-motor or supercharging it with an unequal-length header and louder catback resulted in such awful noise that even *I* would have written exhaust tickets for them.

Then again, now that the older BRZ/FRS models are cheap enough to engine swap (or cheap rollers are available with blown up FA20's) some cool stuff is out there now, like LS V8 swap kits and Honda K-motor swap kits, both of which are spectacularly better than the FA20 in every possible way. A local car buddy stuffed a 575whp LS7 and Tremec Magnum-F into his BRZ and it is WILD!

I agree. Ad 100hp to the BRZ/86, a little more tire, bump the price $3-4000 seems to me would be a winner. I just saw the Motorweek test of the new hot version to the 86 and they raved about everything for 10 minutes....until they said it has the same engine. The Supra is in at least 2 steps up price class. And then they came out w/ X HP the first year and added 40HP I think in the second year, BONEHEAD move. How pi$$ed would I be if I rushed out to be one of the first Supra buyers and then got boned the next year? And maybe I am prejudiced for Japanese quality but when I saw that X% of the Supra was by BMW, my thought was, not me.

Totally agreed on the failures of both cars. The GT86 would have been fantastic if not for the boxer-4.

On the MKV, agreed that it's so much less than it might have been, but Toyota simply wanted the cheapest/easiest/lowest effort solution to the 'Supra problem' and a curated BMW is what we got.

[0ddl0t]

The Supra came about because Toyota wanted to show the world that it had come into its own and was no longer just a cheap imported imitation *cough*


As such it was a demonstration of luxury technology (DOHC, port EFI, 4 wheel disc brakes, cruise control, electronically controlled transmission, etc in 1979). The MK1 was a borderline failure - an afterthought of what they could do by stretching & gussying up a Celica, but the Lotus-engineered MK2 Supra was an absolute hit while still being within reach of most buyers (~$15K MSRP which is equivalent to around ~$45K today)

The MK3 added more cutting edge technology (double wishbone suspension, intercooled turbo, distributorless ignition, etc) but had bloated so much that it was no longer competitive on the track. Its only real saving grace was that it could make monster power. It was also priced out of reach of many ($22,500 MSRP - about $60K in today's money).

The MK4 was Toyota proving that it could beat not just RX7 and 300Zx, but also the Corvette and the rest of the world. It was more of a purist's sports/GT car, but it sold like shit (11,000 some cars total in the US). For $42,000 (~$90,000 today) you could get the enthusiast's choice of a MKIV tt or for the same money you could get the much more comfortable, less ostentatious SC400 with essentially the same chassis. US buyers picked the blander SC400 7 to 1.

The 1990s Japanese asset bubble ("lost decades") had a lot to do with why formerly affordable 300zxtt's and supra and 3000gt and RX7tt's sold so poorly.


For the 2000s-today Toyota no longer had anything to prove. It doesn't need to make a loss-leading sports car to grace the front pages of enthusiast magazines in order to convince everyday Americans that Toyota makes good cars. The average American no longer holds Japanese automakers responsible for Pearl Harbor. Building a MKIV-equivalent would be a money-losing proposition.

[JRB]

The Supra came about because Toyota wanted to show the world that it had come into its own and was no longer just a cheap imported imitation *cough*


As such it was a demonstration of luxury technology (DOHC, port EFI, 4 wheel disc brakes, cruise control, electronically controlled transmission, etc in 1979). The MK1 was a borderline failure - an afterthought of what they could do by stretching & gussying up a Celica, but the Lotus-engineered MK2 Supra was an absolute hit while still being within reach of most buyers (~$15K MSRP which is equivalent to around ~$45K today)

The MK3 added more cutting edge technology (double wishbone suspension, intercooled turbo, distributorless ignition, etc) but had bloated so much that it was no longer competitive on the track. Its only real saving grace was that it could make monster power. It was also priced out of reach of many ($22,500 MSRP - about $60K in today's money).

The MK4 was Toyota proving that it could beat not just RX7 and 300Zx, but also the Corvette and the rest of the world. It was more of a purist's sports/GT car, but it sold like shit (11,000 some cars total in the US). For $42,000 (~$90,000 today) you could get the enthusiast's choice of a MKIV tt or for the same money you could get the much more comfortable, less ostentatious SC400 with essentially the same chassis. US buyers picked the blander SC400 7 to 1.

The 1990s Japanese asset bubble ("lost decades") had a lot to do with why formerly affordable 300zxtt's and supra and 3000gt and RX7tt's sold so poorly.


For the 2000s-today Toyota no longer had anything to prove. It doesn't need to make a loss-leading sports car to grace the front pages of enthusiast magazines in order to convince everyday Americans that Toyota makes good cars. The average American no longer holds Japanese automakers responsible for Pearl Harbor. Building a MKIV-equivalent would be a money-losing proposition.

Eh, I think you're oversimplifying the situation and looking at it all myopically from the perspective of sports cars alone.

The Celica Supra didn't get a DOHC engine until the 5M-GE in 1982; the 79-81's were 4M-E SOHC engines and had a live rear axle (often pillaged for use in higher HP AE86's). Same in Japan where the Celica XX didn't get the 1G-GE or 5M-GE until 1981 production year.

The Celica Supra came about because Toyota saw how many Z's were selling in Japan, the US, and the rest of the world, and realized they probably made a mistake in not keeping the 2000GT alive in a more affordable form. In the 70's and 80's there was much more interest in sports cars and smaller economy cars because of the gas crunch, but it was the sturdy old Toyota truck and its insanely reliable 20R/22R engine that sold the US on Toyota quality. Toyota's debut of Lexus in 1990 would push that further.

The 1980s were also a hot time for sports cars but American competition was still hamstrung by the gas crisis and new emissions rules. It was basically a war of escalation between Nissan with the S130 Z (our 280ZX) with an available turbo engine, the Celica XX's first M-TEU 2.0L SOHC non-intercooled turbo engine option, then a bunch of back and forth between the 1G-GE engine, 5M-GE engines in the Celica XX and the VG30ET in the Z31 300ZX turbo, then finally the GA70/MA70's debut with the 1G-GTE turbo 2.0L and 7M-GTE turbo 3.0L, then the Skyline GT-R and Z32TT in 1990, then the 1JZ-GTE from Toyota in the same old A70 Supra along with the various Chaser/Mark II sedans and the Soarer (US SC300) then the JZA80's debut as the last arrival of the 90's Japanese halo cars, following the hot debut of the NSX, 3000GT VR4, FD RX7, and the aforementioned GT-R and 300ZXTT. By the time the JZA80 hit the US, the market was already moving toward SUV's and HP was coming back into US options. New Camaro/Trans Am in '94, new Mustang SN95 in '94, Corvette ZR-1 and higher HP LT1 V8's finally, meaning the new TT Supra 6-spd missed the halcyon 90-93 model years where Japanese turbocharged power was the only choice for 300+hp in stock form. So luxury image and fancy branding ruled with the SC400 because it wasn't a Japanese brand folks associated with tiny trucks and economy cars 10 years prior.
It would have been absolutely trivial for Toyota to crank things up a little with the JZA80 to offer 400hp stock, which would have attracted a lot more interested buyers, but they didn't.
The aftermarket had figured that out almost immediately but didn't get the press and popularity from internet connectivity back then.

Throw in some bias from car rags of the time preferring domestic HP, the 'buy American' campaign starting fast, and the push to SUV's and Minivans over regular cars.. and the cards were stacked against all of our Japanese favorites.
Mix in the E36 M3 and some other German competition and it was a wrap. Supra orders closed after the 1998 model year. Then in 1999, that some crude digital videos and pictures were being taken of a 'Walser Supra' that featured a huge HKS GT2835 twin turbo upgrade with matching fuel system and camshaft upgrades walking a then-incredibly potent 1999 Hayabusa on the highway. Then a HKS T51R SPL equipped single turbo Supra made 853whp on an unopened stock 3.0L Toyota engine at the first 'T2K' meet in 2000, and in between all of that the Supra exploded as a tuning platform. A cool car dude in Austin TX ran 9's in the 1/4 mile in a 6spd manual Supra that had every creature comfort intact, and picked up his daughter from school in it. Car magazines were full of Supras making 600-750hp with catalog-formula parts builds that simply swapped out turbo kits and injectors for bigger stuff, and touched nothing else in the powertrain beyond a clutch upgrade.
Around that time some movie producers were picking cars for a movie trying to capture the import car/street racing trends of the time, and an orange Supra got the nod because of the performance pedigree in the tuning world and the targa top option being convenient for a particular scene in the script.

But all that was lost on Toyota by then. Toyota executives had visited a Dallas Cowboys football game around the time Supra importation ended, and looked upon the endless parking lot full of half-ton V8 gasoline pickup trucks and SUV's, and they finally 'clicked' and put a V8 truck formula together, which we got as the Tundra, followed by the Sequoia.
Since then, Toyota's been following high-volume trends for max profit margin in lieu of trying to pridefully represent Toyota's prowess in every market segment.

The 2020 Supra was borne out of something between appeasement and malicious compliance, nothing else. It is a hell of a potent car thanks to established BMW tuning techniques and the Supra version of that powertrain being more robust than most, but it's not going to last 20+ years in built form like the JZA80 does.

But at this point, I'm just a 40-something rambling about his teenage passion that became a misdirected full time or part time profession for a decent chunk of my adult life. Studying finances and making smart investments, or simply working regular jobs and saving money would have been much wiser decisions.... oh well!

[0ddl0t]

But at this point, I'm just a 40-something rambling about his teenage passion that became a misdirected full time or part time profession for a decent chunk of my adult life. Studying finances and making smart investments, or simply working regular jobs and saving money would have been much wiser decisions.... oh well!

I was probably half a decade ahead of you going to mid 90s SOGI and IMOC meets filled with aspiring dot commers teaching each other how to make fog lights work without headlights, shortening shifters, locking TEMS in firm fulltime, and using home depot supplies to increase boost while reading about "our own" Reg Reimer in Motortrend during each year's One Lap of America. As folks graduated and started earning real money, those shimmed or bled wastegates were replaced by the entire HKS alphabet ebc, fcd, tt, FMIC, to4r, etc before moving on to custom parts, other platforms, or house & kid responsibilities...

That damn tuna movie in 2001 was the beginning of the end for me. On the plus side the aftermarket exploded, but the constant street racing & dyno drama grew tiresome. For a time I worked behind the scenes on a (then) innovative turbo kit from one of the major online discount parts suppliers and was amazed at how much of the internet drama from titans of the industry was entirely fabricated. They were readily colluding behind the scenes to achieve top tier discounts (e.g. "you buy from HKS directly and I'll buy from you at cost. I'll buy from GReddy directly and you'll buy from me at cost.) but would go back to arguing on Supraforums over which of their private label parts was superior - knowing full well they were all selling the same part from the same manufacturer...

[JRB]

I was probably half a decade ahead of you going to mid 90s SOGI and IMOC meets filled with aspiring dot commers teaching each other how to make fog lights work without headlights, shortening shifters, locking TEMS in firm fulltime, and using home depot supplies to increase boost while reading about "our own" Reg Reimer in Motortrend during each year's One Lap of America. As folks graduated and started earning real money, those shimmed or bled wastegates were replaced by the entire HKS alphabet ebc, fcd, tt, FMIC, to4r, etc before moving on to custom parts, other platforms, or house & kid responsibilities...

That damn tuna movie in 2001 was the beginning of the end for me. On the plus side the aftermarket exploded, but the constant street racing & dyno drama grew tiresome. For a time I worked behind the scenes on a (then) innovative turbo kit from one of the major online discount parts suppliers and was amazed at how much of the internet drama from titans of the industry was entirely fabricated. They were readily colluding behind the scenes to achieve top tier discounts (e.g. "you buy from HKS directly and I'll buy from you at cost. I'll buy from GReddy directly and you'll buy from me at cost.) but would go back to arguing on Supraforums over which of their private label parts was superior - knowing full well they were all selling the same part from the same manufacturer...

We were on similar email lists back then! I remember all the SOGI 'free mods', and taking a broomstick to the cat in my '87 Turbo as a teenager....simpler times! Andi B stopped by our biggest local import speed shop on his one lap tour in his QS '98 to buy race gas. I remember emailing Reg Reimer about sourcing a TechTom setup for my '87 Turbo and tuning it. Way beyond my budget!

All the feuding between Ryan Woon, Saad Saad, SW, Dusty, Jarrett at PHR, Vinny Ten, Dana at Virtual Works, etc.... then Nero shows up with Titan a few years later.. then all the feuding between tuners, Justin Nenni, John Reed, etc.. yeah a lot of the feuds were manufactured but it was a good time nonetheless! It was kind of an amazing time to be in the game honestly, it felt like new records were being set all the time and everyone would say 'that's it, there's no way you can go faster on this' and then 3 months later someone would make another 75whp or find another 3 tenths on a slower track and start the fever and smack talking up all over again!
Yeah, a few of the parts were same thing, different box, but a surprising diaspora happened in sourcing in the early-mid 2000's as everyone kept trying to find an edge over everyone else for the bragging rights. Then early ITS turbos and some weird PHR curated parts bin turbos started making impressive gains on race gas vs the Japanese style super-efficient turbine wheels with huge turbine housings and compressors that favor moderate pressure ratios, which were meant for making max HP on (comparatively) crappy RON100 pump premium vs VP C16 and such.

Then there was all the drama with the AEM EMS V1 basically being beta-tested on the Supra community, and all the problems arising from that. Once Haltech and a few other options got more established it forced AEM to get it right...

I've still got a box with a bunch of HKS VPC's, a couple Fcon 3.24's, and a few other then-coveted top dollar goodies. All dust-gathering curiosities and worthless compared to modern EMS options. The Supra I'm building for a friend right now is getting a Motec M130 with CAN integration to all the stock controls w/a DBW pedal and throttle and everything so every factory feature works, plus 2-step, antilag, fantastically superior traction control, etc. Plus full flex fuel with integrated boost control so targeted boost levels and timing are all adjusted based on EtOH %, no knobs or buttons to fiddle with, more E equals more HP. Simply impossible to even dream up back in those days!

Look into the Precision 'Next Gen' turbos - wild stuff is going on with current tech. A friend of mine just tuned a 3.4 2JZ stroker with the Next Gen 7275. Made 1241whp while basically spooling faster than old school DBB 66mm turbos, insane stuff!

[Doc_Glock]

This is good.



This is better.

PS: having a base, manual, Z51 equipped C6 really makes one uninterested in supras😗

[Bucky]

[video=youtube;5vYuCs34wSk]
PS: having a base, manual, Z51 equipped C6 really makes one uninterested in supras😗

Just don’t Pro Charge it.

As for Toyota, we have a Highlander and a few Chevys. Comparing the build quality is laughable. A can see where a real Supra would have some appeal to Corvette owner that’s tired of fixing and replacing stuff.

[Doc_Glock]

As for Toyota, we have a Highlander and a few Chevys. Comparing the build quality is laughable. A can see where a real Supra would have some appeal to Corvette owner that’s tired of fixing and replacing stuff.

We just got a like new 30k mile 2004 LeSabre. And I can affirm American build quality is just garbage compared to the similar era Hondas and Toyotas we have owned. It does drive like a warm stick of butter though.