.45 Minor Defense

[Hambo]

I may be wrong, but I think the NYPD stakeout unit was a big user of SWC ammo...including Bill Allard who was a proponent of the .45 caliber

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According to Cirillo, Allard carried .45 WC in the chamber of his .45, and SWCs in the magazine.

[jd950]

Well if we are discussing such ammo in a law enforcement or self defense context, Allard said in an interview a few years back that "unfortunately in those days ammunition was not what it is today; we didn't have good hollow points. We used ball, so we were at a slight disadvantage."

In the mid-1970's I also used ball or SWC ammo in a 1911, but that was because there was nothing better (or at least nothing better that would reliably cycle), not because it was a particularly good choice. I am not comparing myself in any manner to those guys; I am just saying that the ammo they chose then is almost certainly not what they would choose today.

FWIW.

[Lost River]

eh... not exactly. NYPD did eventually transition from 158 grain lead round nose to 158 grain +P LSWC as their standard .38 load but I think that was after the stakeout squad.

They were big proponents of 12 gauge slugs and .30 cal M1 carbines.

Jim Cirillo was a proponent of SWC and WC, preferably jacketed with a sharp edge so it would dig in rather than glance off when it hit bone. They had bullets glance off skulls and pelvises. They were know for shooting fleeing robbers in the buttocks / pelvis to try and prevent their escape.One squad member in particular shot so many fleeing robber's in the ass he was known as "The Proctologist."

Allard did carry a 1911 .45 national match as his "back up" to his .38 cal service weapon but it had as much to do with having used the 1911 in high level competition as it being a .45. The browning high power was the "back up" auto of choice among NYPD in those days.

The stakeout squad was primarily made up of NYPD firearms instructors who were idle/ surplus during a hiring freeze and layoff. Keep in mind NYPD hires 1500 to 2500 cops per academy class and runs a couple classes per year to keep up with attrition from injuries, retirements etc. The hiring freeze meant 30-40 of their FI staff were excess to their needs. All of whom were the competition shooters, hunters, etc.

In other words the results the stakeout squad achieved were much more the result of software than hardware.

Cirillo was also a fan of .45 and 10mm in his later years, usually in S&W Autos. Regardless, neither was using a "minor" power factor load.

Speaking of Jim Cirillo,

Ken, H allowed the privilege of examining and taking a couple of pics of one of Cirillo's 3" K Frames one time not too long ago. Double cool in my book!




Please disregard the dirty hands, we had been shooting.

[Lost River]

I realize there is obviously better modern ammo, but I would not feel poorly armed at all if all I had was a full magazine of .45 caliber hard cast 230-250 grain SWCs pushed at typical .45 ACP velocities.

[revchuck38]

I realize there is obviously better modern ammo, but I would not feel poorly armed at all if all I had was a full magazine of .45 caliber hard cast 230-250 grain SWCs pushed at typical .45 ACP velocities.

I'd love to find a source for commercially cast 230-grain coated LSWCs. If they were useable in an autoloader, that'd be gravy.

[Hambo]

I'd love to find a source for commercially cast 230-grain coated LSWCs. If they were useable in an autoloader, that'd be gravy.

They're not 230gr, but they look interesting https://missouribullet.com/details.p...0&secondary=13

[revchuck38]

They're not 230gr, but they look interesting https://missouribullet.com/details.p...0&secondary=13

Yeah, they do!

[358156hp]

I realize there is obviously better modern ammo, but I would not feel poorly armed at all if all I had was a full magazine of .45 caliber hard cast 230-250 grain SWCs pushed at typical .45 ACP velocities.

LBT 230 gr LFN. Veral Smith refers to it as the best "soft target" 45 ACP design:

[RevolverRob]

Dallas PD allowed officers to carry weapons of their choice for most of the 20th century. If you read the book on Holloway’s Raiders (Dallas’ longer running, even more successful stakeout squad), while their preferences were for 12-gauge buckshot from an 870, there were quite a few shootouts conducted with 1911s and various revolvers in .38/.357 during a nearly 20-year period. A lot of dead bad guys, and the long and short remains - hits count, misses don’t.

[Lost River]

Rim Rock Bullets of Montana makes a 255 grain hard cast SWC for .45 ACPs. While I have used a bunch of their bullets, I have not used that particular one. That said, a 255 SWC would be a very solid choice if one had no access to JHPs, could not afford them, or whatever the circumstances.