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Thread: 12 or 20 Gauge for Defensive Slug Gun?

  1. #11
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    Played with a 20ga M2 last week with some Winchester slugs, it kicked a lot more than my M2 does with any of the standard slugs I shoot.

    Great light handy little gun, not lower recoiling than the same gun 12ga.
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by john c View Post
    If you're already fielding a fleet of guns, I don't think the pros of changing outweigh the infrastructure already in place. Why surplus the guns you already have, plus the shotgun mounts in the car, spares in inventory, and ammo in inventory just for a lighter weight gun? Plus there's the danger of putting a 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge. The smaller shell slips into the bore, allowing another 12 gauge shell to chamber. The resulting bore obstruction destroys the gun, and possibly hurting the shooter. That makes transitioning to a new gun over time difficult.
    All valid points. It was more of a discussion point when we had six very nicely set up 1187s for 25 field officers, and the head of firearms traded them all in for 10-12 Mossberg 590s....that was 15 years ago, and now with patrol rifles so common and available (we issue Colt 14.5s with AAC cans, and M&P15s without cans, both are issued with optics.) we can't give shotguns away. There are only a couple of guys that can run them, as most don't practice.

    pat

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    All valid points. It was more of a discussion point when we had six very nicely set up 1187s for 25 field officers, and the head of firearms traded them all in for 10-12 Mossberg 590s....that was 15 years ago, and now with patrol rifles so common and available (we issue Colt 14.5s with AAC cans, and M&P15s without cans, both are issued with optics.) we can't give shotguns away. There are only a couple of guys that can run them, as most don't practice.

    pat
    Got it. Trading 1187s for Mossberg 590s would be tough to swallow. But 20 gauge guns would have been the way to go, since you could get rid of all them at once. I work for a larger agency (1000+ officers) and there's no way we're ever getting rid of our 870s in 12 gauge, with all the guns in inventory, spares, training, and mounts for the cars. Probably about 1 in 5 patrol officers have rifles, so pump shotguns are still a thing. I personally can't believe we're still using them in 2019 (other than for less lethal, where they shine).

    I'm jealous of your rifle setup. That's definitely the way to go.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    Played with a 20ga M2 last week with some Winchester slugs, it kicked a lot more than my M2 does with any of the standard slugs I shoot.

    Great light handy little gun, not lower recoiling than the same gun 12ga.
    What slugs were you shooting, in each gun? Where they comparable slugs, for each gauge? Are these M2s set up for hunting, or defense? If hunting, what do you hunt with them? At what ranges?

    Thanks for your input.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by john c View Post
    What slugs were you shooting, in each gun? Where they comparable slugs, for each gauge? Are these M2s set up for hunting, or defense? If hunting, what do you hunt with them? At what ranges?

    Thanks for your input.
    The only 20Ga slug we had was the Winchester Foster Slug. Bearing in mind most of the 12Ga we shoot here is European I primarily shoot RC slugs, but have shot a variety including the Winchester Fosters.

    The guns were a 24" 20Ga M2 and my 26" M2 SP which is set up for gaming, nothing recoil reducing though just a long tube and a cut port.

    The 20qa is much smaller lighter gun so its not surprising that there is a bit of recoil with a full power load.

    I haven't managed to get anything with a slug yet, though i am hoping to fix that soon. My buddy who owns the 20 shoots a lot of game with 12ga slugs though, mainly the same RC hollow Point, and they work very well. He's hoping to take the 20 out soon on a hunt.
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  6. #16
    The Brenneke Classic Magnum 12 gauge slug is 492 grains at 1,510 fps and the 20 gauge is 437 grains at 1,476 fps according to the Brenneke website. Bore diameter for a 12 gauge is .729 vs .615 for the 20. Sectional density is .132 for the Brenneke 12 gauge Classic Magnum and .165 for the Brenneke 20 gauge Classic Magnum.

    Comparing power factor, the Brenneke 12 gauge Classic Magnum is about 750 and the Brenneke 20 is about 645. While the Benelli M2 20 is thinner than the 12, the weight of my 20 is similar to the weight of my 14 inch M2 12 gauge, so not surprisingly the 645 power factor 20 gauge slug recoils less than the 750 power factor in my M2 shotguns, and the 20 has less concussion since it has a longer barrel.

    Since no thread is complete without a picture.

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    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    The Brenneke Classic Magnum 12 gauge slug is 492 grains at 1,510 fps and the 20 gauge is 437 grains at 1,476 fps according to the Brenneke website. Bore diameter for a 12 gauge is .729 vs .615 for the 20. Sectional density is .132 for the Brenneke 12 gauge Classic Magnum and .165 for the Brenneke 20 gauge Classic Magnum.

    Comparing power factor, the Brenneke 12 gauge Classic Magnum is about 750 and the Brenneke 20 is about 645. While the Benelli M2 20 is thinner than the 12, the weight of my 20 is similar to the weight of my 14 inch M2 12 gauge, so not surprisingly the 645 power factor 20 gauge slug recoils less than the 750 power factor in my M2 shotguns, and the 20 has less concussion since it has a longer barrel.

    Since no thread is complete without a picture.

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    Thats an interesting observation. I noticed the recoil of the 20 even more than my 14' Nova, but the concussion issue is dramatically different.

    Im wondering if gun fit is playing a part here as well.
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    The Brenneke Classic Magnum 12 gauge slug is 492 grains at 1,510 fps
    I don't think they have a "classic" standard pressure do they? Man those kick in my 870. Way more than the LE loading of the Truball Penetrator slugs I sourced from SGAmmo. Those are 1 oz at 1350 fps and not bad IMO and I'm a pussy about shoulder recoil.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  9. #19
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    It's all about the physics.

    - What weight projectile are you pushing?
    - What is its velocity?
    - What is the weight of the gun you are firing it from?

    People believe that the 20 gauge offers less recoil because it is a smaller without accounting for the realities of the ammunition they are putting through it. The 20 gauge guns are typically smaller and lighter which helps in handling but that's also less bulk to soak up the forces of recoil when you are pushing a significant payload.

    If you are pushing a payload/projectile that is about the same weight at a velocity that is about the same speed but you are doing so through a smaller and lighter gun, there will be predictable consequences. The exact nature of those consequences will vary somewhat if you are using a semi-auto as different semi-autos handle recoil differently. A Beretta A400, for example, will probably have less felt recoil than a Benelli in 20 gauge due to the difference in their operating systems.

    What exactly are you trying to do with the gun?

    That is the real question you have to answer. You mentioned "defensive use" but is that primarily defense against humans? The threat you are trying to address will contribute to selecting an appropriate load.

    There is a huge hunting application for slugs because a significant number of hunters are in areas where they aren't allowed to use rifles. Shotgun slugs are legal and so there has been significant development of sabot style slugs that are designed to work in fully rifled barrels for maximum accuracy. With the right setup you can put a projectile that is still typically heavier than most rifle projectiles into an animal at velocities hovering around 2,000 FPS that will reliably expand and be accurate enough to hit at up to 200 yards. For comparison purposes, that's about the same ballistics you can get from faster .45-70 loads.

    If you are looking to take big game and you're stuck in a place where you can't get the ballistic advantage that comes from rifle rounds that travel 2,700-3,200 FPS with the larger TSC that comes with them, the sabot style slugs are a pretty darn good option.

    If you need deep penetration to reliably hit the vitals of a large dangerous animal like a bear or if you need to punch through an intermediate barrier like auto bodies to get at a bad guy, something like the Federal Tru-Ball Deep Penetrator slug is going to be advantageous because the copper plating on the outside of the slug and the higher hardness of the lead alloy used in the slug keep it from wasting much energy by deforming on impact.

    If you are talking about typical defensive use of a shotgun against human threats, slugs aren't really the preferred option.

    Slugs tend to punch a hole in the dude you intended to shoot and keep right on truckin' to hit whatever/whomever is behind him. The hole itself is big, but because it is moving pretty slow it is going to work just like a pistol bullet: Creating only a permanent crush cavity. Granted it's going to be a big damn PCC because it's a big damn projectile, but that's really all you get.

    For that application the best slugs are typically soft foster-style slugs that deform relatively easily so they will actually expand a bit inside the threat. They don't really expand like a typical JHP, they sort of "pancake" from the back to the front:



    If you use a harder slug like the Deep Penetrator or one of the harder Brenneke style slugs it's just going to punch right on through leaving a hole about the size of the slug. The harder Brenneke style slugs are going to be great for smashing large bone structures. The pelvic girdle is a sub-optimal target with pistols and with typical defensive rifle rounds, but a shotgun loaded with slugs will absolutely wreck the pelvic bone of a human at typical shotgun distances.

    The tendency of slugs to punch right through human threats is enough of a recognized phenomenon that segmented slugs are becoming common:



    Designed to break into 3 pieces, the slug gives you the single projectile of a slug that also gives you a bit of the multiple-projectile advantage once it's inside tissue. (Multiple projectiles hitting roughly the same place at the same time reduces tissue elasticity and causes more tearing...which is why buckshot is so effective as a defensive round) I don't use them personally because they shoot to a very different point of aim than my typical buckshot loads and I don't want to have to fool with trying to work that out if I need to slug select in a defensive situation (extremely unlikely) or in the woods hunting (much, much more likely)

    There are more 20 gauge slugs available these days, but that is primarily aimed at hunting use of the shotgun moreso than defensive use. And while the 20 gauge slugs are certainly going to be effective, they are essentially turning the 20 gauge into a less accurate straight-walled rifle cartridge from the late 19th century but with a better projectile. The 20 gauge runs a very, very distant second to the 12 gauge when it comes to defensive ammo and options.

    The intended application will guide the answers intelligently: What, exactly, are you defending against? Why do want a dedicated slug gun? Are you working with a gun you already own, or are you contemplating a purchase? Will that purchase have primarily one task or will it be used to do multiple things?
    Last edited by TCinVA; 12-03-2019 at 10:08 AM.
    3/15/2016

  10. #20

    Multiple load velocity choices in 12 gauge rifled slugs

    Quote Originally Posted by john c View Post
    I know 12 gauge is the traditional defensive shotgun caliber. For buckshot this makes sense, due to the increased payload of the 12 gauge. For a dedicated slug gun, does the 12 gauge still have an advantage? Looking at the data, it appears that 20 gauge slugs are lighter, but have higher velocities for higher overall muzzle energy.

    I'm interested in a lower recoiling gun, plus the advantages of slug technology. Is there a reason to stick with 12 gauge?
    Just considering domestic 12 gauge 2.75" one ounce Rifled Slug options, a bit of online research will turn up ammunition loaded to 1200 fps, 1300 fps, 1350 fps, 1560 fps and 1600 fps. Now those slug velocities are taken from 30" factory pressure test barrels and the actual velocity from 18 to 20 inch barrels will be lower. On the lower end of the spectrum, recoil is roughly the same as light skeet loads.

    Indeed one can find low recoil eight pellet buckshot loads, both conventional and flite control option at a nominal 1200 fps as well. Those along with one ounce 1200 fps rifled slugs and one ounce 1200 fps lead shot target loads will cover the spectrum from target to defensive use.

    The 12 gauge has a lot of low or reduced recoil optiions!

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