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Thread: HELP - Little frustrated with my group shooting with my Glock. Any advice?

  1. #21
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    If you're not using a plain serrated rear sight with a fiber optic front, you should.

    Pick your front sight width to be .025 to .030 thinner than the rear sight notch width.

    IMO tactical sights rarely are ideal for this sport.

  2. #22
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    My .02 cents and they are worth just that.... I think there is 3 things that effect your "tight group." Maybe there are more out there but here's the 3 that I consider...

    1: How accurate is your ammo and gun.

    2: Your ability to aim in the exact spot every single time.

    3: Trigger control, consistent, pulling it off target before the shot breaks.

    Me personally I try not to worry about #1. I shoot a Glock with a KKM barrel and what I think is pretty accurate. I'd love to put it in a vice and see what it does.

    #2 I think is a really big factor. I can't be as consistent as a vice..just a little variation up, down, left right and your group will open up. Think about the size of your sights, how much gap between the blade and rear notch. It doesn't take much variation.

    #3 Is the one people probably worry about the most. I think you'll see this in flyers.

    I think group shooting is very important. Brian Enos talks about it in his book Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals. Ben Stoeger does as well in Skills and Drills. Check it out, he lays out some standards.

    For me, at 25 yards at a USPSA/IDPA target I want to cover up the group with my hand. At 50 yards I want them all in the A zone.
    Last edited by nwhpfan; 11-30-2019 at 01:22 PM.
    A71593

  3. #23
    At a fundamental level, if you can’t shoot a reasonable group you can’t properly zero your sights or optic, test ammo, and assess the mechanical accuracy of your firearm. Enos in his book, Leatham and Racaza in their classes, use group shooting as both a trigger control exercise and a baseline for making sure the equipment is working.

    With that accomplished, meaning the ability to shoot a group, the interesting discussion is how much of your training time should be spent on accuracy and how much on speed. I suspect a preoccupation with accuracy has retarded the development of more shooters than a preoccupation with speed. We all know you need both, but there are different approaches as to how to achieve a reasonable amount of speed and accuracy the most efficiently.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    With that accomplished, meaning the ability to shoot a group, the interesting discussion is how much of your training time should be spent on accuracy and how much on speed. I suspect a preoccupation with accuracy has retarded the development of more shooters than a preoccupation with speed. We all know you need both, but there are different approaches as to how to achieve a reasonable amount of speed and accuracy the most efficiently.
    I think this is a worthy discussion. For action shooting disciplines like IPSC, USPSA, and IDPA, the balance of speed and accuracy is the crux of the whole sport and you have to be very good at both to do really well.

    Personally, and I used a Glock in competition, so this is relevant to the OP’s topic. I practice trigger control and sight alignment in every dry practice session and accuracy work at every live fire session. I’ve never found Glocks harder to glean accuracy out of, but I’m also not hyper focussed on accuracy.

    Dry fire: Wall drills and speed draws to a low % target. My focus is to watch the front sight very carefully and to minimize movement.

    Live fire: B8’s at 25 yards. I don’t get too crazy about it; my goal with this is to get a couple of targets at 90 or above to ensure my skill is adequate for anything I’m likely to see at a match. I spend about 15% of my ammo budget on accuracy. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how much I need to work on it.

    Accuracy, like speed, is a perishable skill and should be continuously worked on to maintain or exceed current skill level.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
    --

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    The A zone is 6" wide and 11" tall. Groups that are 4 to 4.5" tall by about the same width at 25 yards are perfectly fine.

    Bro, you're confusing the subjects. Big and easy is in that ass thread on doodie; this one is about the USPSA shooting. Please don't make me take screenshots off of my videos of all those headbox only partials we had at the Nats. Two of my mikes came from them, plus another one that I called two mikes correctly on and therefore had to take four shots. A metric shitton of GMs don't want you to go anywhere until you can hold your groups. Ben wrote somewhere that he wanted a quarter size group at 10, and under 4 at 25.
    @rodralig: nothing in your pics tells me that you actually shoot Glock worse. There's one low left that is your tension, most likely, that opened that group. You being a right handed shooter, based on your avatar, the overall group placement doesn't suggest any of the usual fundamentals problem. That said, if Shadow 2 comes easier, just shoot that and work on getting a spare.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Bro, you're confusing the subjects. Big and easy is in that ass thread on doodie; this one is about the USPSA shooting. Please don't make me take screenshots off of my videos of all those headbox only partials we had at the Nats.
    No I don't think I am.

    If you need work on partial heads set some of those up.
    But if you can hold half the a zone at 25 then there's SO much more low hanging fruit in splits, movement, and manipulations that it's dumb to overlook all that while burning time on slow fire groups.

  7. #27
    Splits, movements etc are useless without fundamentals. Slow groups are a part of the development and measurement of your fundamentals, in fact, the basic one - hitting what you want to hit. You think it is at the point of diminished returns, that's fine, your training is yours. That's though contrary to the opinion of many dudes who are better shooters and better competitors. Same crowd that when they push splits in doubles, they don't consider the whole A acceptable, and when they push accuracy, they don't consider 4-4.5 OK.
    My personal standard, if we're talking really slow fire at 25, is close to 50% shots in the upper A, and all of them within the former B. Not only I want to be certain it is all in, shooting minor I also want to collect as many As no matter the distance, within a reasonable time frame. Ends up being 3.5-4 inch group, and I'd like to tighten it a bit more.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  8. #28
    Member rodralig's Avatar
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    I don't know what to say - you guys are awesome. So many insights here. Much appreciated - thank you!!! (Will still need time to digest this into bits and build up my practice menu going forward)

    At the very least, just to get address my doubts that it is NOT me (and my fundamentals) - along with what the order I placed last night for B8s; also ordered a better rest (that the Caldwell Matrix):

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...LZXLRSMM&psc=1



    Will then have to wait for a weekend to go to another range, since the one closest to me doesn't allow shooting from a rest nor a seated position. Yeah, I know - California...



    For those that have suggested that I dump the Glock, and go with the Shadow 2. I am seriously thinking about it. My only concern is that I will need to get a spare for dry practice/match backup. Shadow 2s are not easy to come by in California and they cost a forture - $2,200 on average. Other reasons, of course, I have invested a lot in the Glock platform AND would have to re-train myself (draws are fine, but the first shot DA and the reloads are something that will take some work).



    _

  9. #29
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    I doubt the re-training would be as big of a deal as you think, given your groups, both double stack - you're really just talking the first shot. Shadow 2's are expensive, but they're also delivering the goods. Maybe consider the glock sales to go towards a Shadow 2 to lighten the blow?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Splits, movements etc are useless without fundamentals. Slow groups are a part of the development and measurement of your fundamentals, in fact, the basic one - hitting what you want to hit. You think it is at the point of diminished returns, that's fine, your training is yours. That's though contrary to the opinion of many dudes who are better shooters and better competitors. Same crowd that when they push splits in doubles, they don't consider the whole A acceptable, and when they push accuracy, they don't consider 4-4.5 OK.
    My personal standard, if we're talking really slow fire at 25, is close to 50% shots in the upper A, and all of them within the former B. Not only I want to be certain it is all in, shooting minor I also want to collect as many As no matter the distance, within a reasonable time frame. Ends up being 3.5-4 inch group, and I'd like to tighten it a bit more.
    I have the data to validate my approach. The guys that are beating me in Production have a lower A zone % but obviously higher stage hit factors.

    I don't need to get my hits. I need to get them in less time which may or may not mean shooting faster.

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