Accuracy Diagnosis/Target Selection

[lwt16]

To the last comment specifically, I'm with you. I shot a bunch of untimed drills to get some precision down until I got a shot timer. It was good for me at that point, and getting to start running on a timer came about the right time, I think..

I put off purchasing a shot timer for a long, long time.

I do think it is a valuable asset to running drills from concealment as well as, in my case, duty rigs just to get a measurable result for improvement.

You are going to fit in well here and yes.....like discussed in PM....this place is full of great guys/gals and a wealth of information.

I carried a 92FS INOX for several years as an issued duty pistol and they ate everything I ever put in the magazine without issues. I did fracture a firing pin on the second copy the department issued me and didn't know it until the next shooting session. Basically I carried around a paper weight on duty for a week or so. The only other issues we had as an agency were extractor based and that was more from cops loading a round directly in the chamber instead of stripping from the magazine during inspections.

Welcome aboard.

[miller_man]

@Gio —spot on. I recommend working on other shooting skills. Your accuracy is just fine, and will improve as you develop your other skills.

This is SO true, I find this to be exactly the case for me. The more I improve on all aspects of shooting, the more the accuracy just rises. But going down the super accuracy rabbit hole is probably not the best use of time and efforts. Keep it all on the paper on a b-8@25, then all black @25 then stop worrying about it but continue trying to improve it.

I think your accuracy is fine - not amazing or PF high level, but really solid and your on the right track to continue improving it. As long as your continue tracking and working on it, it will just get better. I think being super accurate is something that builds over time - not something you fix in a couple range trips with a few tweaks.

I am not super high level of skill and far from having mastered much of anything, so take this all for what its worth.

[okie john]

Here's a couple other reference targets from the last few weeks.

11/24 Bill Drill, two runs. 3.22 and 3.18 seconds

11/13 Bill Wilson 5x5. 24.82

11/20 Dot Torture @ 3 yds

11/21 Slow fire @ 70 yards, using Geco 115 gr. Point of aim was right at the neck line.

11/8 60 yard slow fire. Black pasties are from my PX4 compact, if I remember right, it was the first trip it made out. Dropped a couple rounds with it, but I'm still impressed what that little 3.3" barrel does. Circled rounds are out of the M9. Believe it was Geco 115, as well. Point of aim also at the neck line.

As clusterfrack pointed out, you're shooting pretty well so it makes sense to focus on gun handling and technique, which is what's really driving most of the variations in results on drills like these.

At the same time, the ability to consistently shoot groups that are centered on the target is the most fundamental skill of all, so it also makes sense to find loads that your pistols shoot well and get your zero squared away. Then it will be easier to identify your problems and assess their magnitude, which are the first steps to solving them. For instance, your 25-yard slow-fire targets show a bias to the right but your speed-drill targets show a bias to the left. POI can easily shift that much due to changing ammo. It can also shift that much because you're pushing shots left like most right-handed shooters do when they hit the gas. Is the problem your ammo or trying to shoot too fast? You won't know until you isolate the variables.

Adding photographs to your training journal is an excellent idea, but you should also start taking better notes (what ammo you're using, etc.).


Okie John

[spence]

As clusterfrack pointed out, you're shooting pretty well so it makes sense to focus on gun handling and technique, which is what's really driving most of the variations in results on drills like these.

At the same time, the ability to consistently shoot groups that are centered on the target is the most fundamental skill of all, so it also makes sense to find loads that your pistols shoot well and get your zero squared away. Then it will be easier to identify your problems and assess their magnitude, which are the first steps to solving them. For instance, your 25-yard slow-fire targets show a bias to the right but your speed-drill targets show a bias to the left. POI can easily shift that much due to changing ammo. It can also shift that much because you're pushing shots left like most right-handed shooters do when they hit the gas. Is the problem your ammo or trying to shoot too fast? You won't know until you isolate the variables.

Adding photographs to your training journal is an excellent idea, but you should also start taking better notes (what ammo you're using, etc.).


Okie John

The go fast button pushes rounds to the left. All the above were shot with Geco 115, if any were different it was the last one and that would have been S&B 115. I do record the number of what brand ammo was fired in each range trip.

[lwt16]

The go fast button pushes rounds to the left. All the above were shot with Geco 115, if any were different it was the last one and that would have been S&B 115. I do record the number of what brand ammo was fired in each range trip.

Happens to me too. Quicker I go the more my low/left shows up.

But still, I tend to work on speed and accuracy on just about ever trip to the range. I typically go weekly and shoot 50 rounds slow bullseye at the 25 or 50 and then the other 150-200 I work on a shot timer and do many drills that focus on speed more than accuracy. One of my favorites is the Supertest (Dobbs/Bolke) from concealment or duty rig. I strive for perfection on that one and haven't seen it yet.

I'm probably the outlier here but I have found that a focus on bullseye has cleaned up my trigger press on speed drills. Others differ. I will say that earlier in the year when I was involved in an OIS against an armed assailant I found that smooth mechanics and calmness allowed me to prevail over the ability to deliver 2 inch groups at 25. Lots of dry training involved in that as I was engaging from my driver's side while seated. Lots of dry practice in parking lots allowed me to plan for that.....and that worked well for me.

One of my partners at work (who is a skilled pistoleer) was also involved in an OIS this year (been a rough year for my squad) and he now focuses some of his training ammo on bullseye style shooting. We try to max out our duty pistol's abilities just in case we have to make precision shots under stress. Like a call I ran yesterday; domestic where a guy was holding a gun to his girlfriend's head while she held their baby.

Even though I routinely run first shot from the retention holster drills on a timer, I felt more confident driving to that call knowing that if needed, I could deliver tight shots in a confined apartment on such a cretin. Thus, my focus on bullseye style shooting is always going to be a part of my training. You may not need such as a hostage situation may be a statistical improbability for you.

I would also get involved in USPSA or IDPA if that's offered up in your neck of the woods. I've dabbled in it and found that smooth mechanics and knowing how to run the equipment afforded me more brain power to focus on the task at hand to complete the stages.

[Clusterfrack]

The go fast button pushes rounds to the left. All the above were shot with Geco 115, if any were different it was the last one and that would have been S&B 115. I do record the number of what brand ammo was fired in each range trip.

That's a very common issue, and will require some work to move past. Try this book:

Breakthrough Marksmanship: The Tools of Practical Shooting
by Ben Stoeger
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1091416818/

Forget about differences in ammo. That's a waste of time.

[spence]

That's a very common issue, and will require some work to move past. Try this book:

Breakthrough Marksmanship: The Tools of Practical Shooting
by Ben Stoeger
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1091416818/

Forget about differences in ammo. That's a waste of time.

Oooh, yay, book! Be a good excuse to read something again. I’m also not that concerned about ammo. That was the indirect point of 50+ yard targets. I get about the same result from any of the ammo mentioned above. I figure consistently hitting an IDPA silhouette at 60 or 70 yards is sufficiently accurate. I would like to get where they’re not outside the -1 zone.

As for competing. That’s not something that’s super close to me. I would definitely like to get into IDPA. There is a range about an hour out that does run and gun, steel challenge, and two gun each month. I’m going over for their run gun here in a week and a half. Would have gone sooner, but since I work for myself, Saturday’s don’t always have the sanctity of being days off. I’m hoping it’s a gateway into more competitive shooting.

[okie john]

I needed to make sure that I wasn’t talking out my ass yesterday, so I went to the range and made these six-shot groups at 10 yards offhand with my Model 29-2. No warmup, I just shot three groups and headed for the house.



I fired the center group first. Load was American Eagle 240-grain JHP, which chronographs at 1,257 fps in this revolver. Extreme spread is 1.25”. The flyer that’s out to the left was my last shot and I felt it go bad. It’s 100% my fault. The other five shots are 0.95” center-to-center.

I fired the right-hand group second. Load was the HSM 240-grain cowboy load, which chronographs at 1,143 fps in this revolver. Extreme spread is 1.77”. Nothing spectacular.

I fired the left-hand group last. Load was the HSM 200-grain cowboy load, which chronographs 861 fps in this revolver. Extreme spread is 1.11”.

Comparing the POIs is interesting. POI for Group 1 without the flyer is 0.75” left and 0.25” low. POI for Group 2 is pretty much dead on for windage and elevation. POI for Group 3 is on for windage but 1.375” low.

For social work inside of 10 yards, all three loads are accurate enough and pretty much zeroed. But POI between the two 240-grain loads varies by about four inches inches at 25 yards and about eight inches at 50 yards. At 100, a cylinder full from one load will be on the paper but only about half of a cylinder full from the other will be on the paper. The 200-grain load shot the best group here and it groups as well as the other two at 25 yards, but it’s so bad at 50 that continued testing there or at greater distance would be a waste of time. It’s interesting that both cast-bullet loads are dead on for windage while the jacketed load hits 0.75” to the left. Not sure why that is, but I see the same dispersion at 25 and 50 yards.

Opinions vary, but I feel like this is good information to have in mind if I need to hit anything beyond about 10 yards.

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

[BN]

Comparing the POIs is interesting.
Okie John

People will say their pistol is sighted in, but the load makes an enormous difference. I have seen similar but slightly different loads have a significantly different POI.

[lwt16]

This is an old shot from a thread about G41s being okay for indoor bullseye. Ten rounds S&b 230 grain.

Freestyle 2 handed. I rarely shoot that close for groups but do run support hand only at 15 yards to work on trigger press.