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Thread: Accuracy Diagnosis/Target Selection

  1. #1
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    Accuracy Diagnosis/Target Selection

    Let's see if I can convey this without being clear as mud. I started getting pretty serious about pistol shooting last spring when I bought my M9. It's got just at 7000 rounds through it now. Bought a 92 Compact the month after that, and it's got a couple thousand through it, but it fits the role of backup right now.

    I've gotten to where I am extremely comfortable with the pistol, and shoot it pretty well. The Lucky Gunner "Start Shooting Better" series got me started on exercises and drills, and is the major influence to utilizing a whole lot of print off B8's and ordering (paper) IDPA targets. I've also since snagged a pile of Q targets, as well.

    So, with my M9, accuracy on any target is rock solid to 10 yards. 15 is usually good. That's where I feel like it gets weird. At 15 and 25 yards (especially 25), I can start having issues with keeping groups centered when using the B8's printed on white paper. The freestyle shooting thread here has been a source of frustration. I do one or both of two things. Groups start running low, or just plain go to hell (usually while being low).

    If I switch to shooting the IDPA targets, or even Q targets, I don't have the problem nearly as much. 25 yards it's much easier to keep rounds centered in the -0 zone than it is to keep them on the flipping paper using B8's. I do feel like I can't focus well on the B8s at extended range. Move out to 35 and 50 yards, it's not too terribly hard to keep in the -0 and -1 zones on the target, although the gun either starts to shoot low at 50+, or I'm doing something wrong.

    I honestly haven't really shot many of my other guns that far (besides the 92 compact, and it's been on the back burner for a while, but I felt like I had less of an issue with excessive drop at 50 yards with it).

    What the tar am I doing wrong to 1) shoot low at times. It's not all the time, but enough for me to question it, and 2) shoot far better on one kind of target vs another?

  2. #2
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    Depending on how dark those B8s are, it might be harder to see the edges of your front sight. You may also want to consider where the edges of the ring/paper are in relation to the rear sight.

  3. #3
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    I print them in draft mode to save ink, they're still pretty dark, but not black as night black.

    If I am understanding your last statement correctly, I've been wondering if that's not part of why I have better luck with a larger target. I can still see, thus hold on, the round -0 zone at 25 still.

  4. #4
    Rough guess is you are having a front sight focus issue. You are letting your vision focus on the target instead of a sharp, hard front sight focus. The larger targets you are allowing to stay fuzzy and when it comes to the B8 at 25 you are focusing too much on it and not the front sight.

    Or, you have an ever so slight pre-ignition shot anticipation issue and you are pushing your shots low.

    Have you tried loading 3-4 snap caps at random in a magazine and seeing what your front sight does when the hammer falls on them?

    Regards.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter miller_man's Avatar
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    I don't see how/why guys would print off the B-8s. 100 pks at brownells are 9.99 - that's $0.10/ea. I bought 4 probably over a year ago and haven't made it past the 2nd one yet.

    Yep, I shoot better groups at distance (15+yds) with a bigger target area. I have figured there is some mental connection with target size, room for error and probably just us over aiming and focusing less on the trigger press on smaller targets.

    At 25 + 50yds, everything is magnified. Every little movement of the gun has greater impact on where hit's go.

    Pretty usual stuff - what was the question?
    The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

    Humbly improving with CZ's.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by spence View Post
    If I switch to shooting the IDPA targets, or even Q targets, I don't have the problem nearly as much. 25 yards it's much easier to keep rounds centered in the -0 zone than it is to keep them on the flipping paper using B8's. I do feel like I can't focus well on the B8s at extended range.
    I have the same problem. It's a vision thing with me. It's easier to center my sights with the bigger target. I'm old enough that I can't focus back and forth from the sights to the target any more. I printed some of the all white B-8's and that helped a little.

  7. #7
    A couple of thoughts;
    - There is no question in my mind that type of target affects how well you shoot it. Example; take a 3 inch dot and sight at it at different distances. The size of the dot in relation to the width of the front sight varies and some variations make it easier to center left to right than others.
    - This will also affect shooting low or high.
    SIGHT Images by craig stuard, on Flickr
    My pistols are set for picture 2. If you are using picture 1, then distance and/or size of target circle will affect POI height.
    - When shooting at longer distance or at smaller targets I only shoot maybe 3-4 shots in a string. After that last shot, it is comfortable for me to bring the pistol back to my chest, aimed up at about 45 degrees and relax my arms. I breath a few cycles to get back to normal because I was usually holding my breath while shooting.
    - You don't mention if any of your shots are in double action mode. If they are, and if they happen to be the shots that hit low, welcome to the club. What helps me w/ that is increasing the grip strength of my support hand.
    - I agree w/ lwt16. No matter how good your eyes are, focus on the front sight only, and let the target be fuzzy. If you wear glasses, what has really helped me was getting a pair where my dominant eye lens (the entire lens) is set to focus at front sight distance.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwt16 View Post
    Rough guess is you are having a front sight focus issue. You are letting your vision focus on the target instead of a sharp, hard front sight focus. The larger targets you are allowing to stay fuzzy and when it comes to the B8 at 25 you are focusing too much on it and not the front sight.

    Or, you have an ever so slight pre-ignition shot anticipation issue and you are pushing your shots low.

    Have you tried loading 3-4 snap caps at random in a magazine and seeing what your front sight does when the hammer falls on them?

    Regards.
    I think you might be right to an extent on both counts. My snap cap population has dwindled really hard, so no, that's one thing I haven't done. However, shooting DA/SA I've spent a lot of time working the DA that I almost feel I can run it better than the SA, and I've shortened to SA up a bit more even with the TJIB from LTT.

    Paul Harrel has a video out there on types of targets, and I believe he talked about the contrast of colors of targets, especially black on white vs the black on tan/off white of most NRA type targets, which is part of what sparked me thinking to pose the question versus just being frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    I don't see how/why guys would print off the B-8s. 100 pks at brownells are 9.99 - that's $0.10/ea. I bought 4 probably over a year ago and haven't made it past the 2nd one yet.

    Yep, I shoot better groups at distance (15+yds) with a bigger target area. I have figured there is some mental connection with target size, room for error and probably just us over aiming and focusing less on the trigger press on smaller targets.

    At 25 + 50yds, everything is magnified. Every little movement of the gun has greater impact on where hit's go.

    Pretty usual stuff - what was the question?

    Problem when buying things like that is not always so much the targets but the cost of shipping. I did find that pistoleer.com isn't bad, bought 100 IPDA and 100 Q targets for $73 or something like that, puts them under .40/each. Buying them something I may consider, but I've used a bunch of them. For exercises out to ten yards, they're great. However, getting the full 10.5x10.5 could be helpful, too.

    What was the question? The question really was "am I some special kind of stoopid, or do I have any kind of clue how to shoot a pistol?" I don't get to shoot with other folks very often, and the few times I typically do, I'm a far better shooter. I really need somebody to shoot with from time to time that's closer to my level. Plus the direction I'm going with pistol shooting means I need to get my crap sorted out.

  9. #9
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nesbitt View Post
    I have the same problem. It's a vision thing with me. It's easier to center my sights with the bigger target.
    This for me as well, although it's a color/contrast issue vs a focus issue. Black sights vs a black background, especially at an indoor range, disappear for me. I have to have a colored insert or the front sight is literally invisible to my perception. I can see the rear sights, I can see the target, I can even see most of the barrel, but I can't find the front sight. So, especially on indoor ranges, I shoot light gray b-8s or other targets.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    A couple of thoughts;
    - There is no question in my mind that type of target affects how well you shoot it. Example; take a 3 inch dot and sight at it at different distances. The size of the dot in relation to the width of the front sight varies and some variations make it easier to center left to right than others.
    - This will also affect shooting low or high.
    SIGHT Images by craig stuard, on Flickr
    My pistols are set for picture 2. If you are using picture 1, then distance and/or size of target circle will affect POI height.
    - When shooting at longer distance or at smaller targets I only shoot maybe 3-4 shots in a string. After that last shot, it is comfortable for me to bring the pistol back to my chest, aimed up at about 45 degrees and relax my arms. I breath a few cycles to get back to normal because I was usually holding my breath while shooting.
    - You don't mention if any of your shots are in double action mode. If they are, and if they happen to be the shots that hit low, welcome to the club. What helps me w/ that is increasing the grip strength of my support hand.
    - I agree w/ lwt16. No matter how good your eyes are, focus on the front sight only, and let the target be fuzzy. If you wear glasses, what has really helped me was getting a pair where my dominant eye lens (the entire lens) is set to focus at front sight distance.
    Here's where I get to start sounding very rambling. It seems that the vast majority of my qualms are with the M9. Not with the compact version, or any other full size pistol I've picked up. I'll have to try this exercise with the PX4 compact I picked up not too long ago, although the few hundred rounds I have through it so far, it doesn't seem to have quite the same quirks, either. It's too early to tell.

    I do believe that the pistol is zeroed for the second sight picture, but I could see where I have issues with the smaller targets and inadvertently focusing more on the 6 oclock.

    When I bought the M9, it was a range toy. I hadn't heard of Ernest Langdon yet, or what all could be done to a 92 series to make them more shootable. It didn't take long to put grips on it, a G kit, and 14# hammer spring. That's where I made up my mind I was going to get competent with DA/SA, otherwise I probably wouldn't have spent the time and money to shoot all the thousands of rounds I have this year. In doing so, I realized a month or two ago that I've spent probably too much time running the DA trigger. I feel good rolling through that 6.5 lb long pull, but the 3.5 SA screws with me sometimes.

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