Seventies? As in Nineteen Seventies? Try the Revolvers sub-forum.
I started policin’ in Houston, Texas in 1984, a bit late to provide a be qualified to comment further, on the Seventies.
Seventies? Ask In Revolvers Forum, Perhaps?
Seventies? As in Nineteen Seventies? Try the Revolvers sub-forum.
I started policin’ in Houston, Texas in 1984, a bit late to provide a be qualified to comment further, on the Seventies.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
In my state there was no provision for a citizen to carry with a permit until the mid-90's, so the practice was patently unlawful. Most of the guys I worked with seldom charged anyone with CCW unless they were (or were suspected of being) involved in something else that was illegal. I routinely exercised my discretion in this regard as I felt such a blanket prohibition (no lawful concealed carry in public) was manifestly inequitable.
The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.
@41mag.....same here. LE from '76-'88. The situation and person's attitude had a lot to do with discretion when confronted by a concealed handgun, whether on a person or in a vehicle. Being forewarned by an individual about the presence of a concealed weapon went a long way. When things got to the arrest stage, no discretion there. It would be up to the judge to order the return or destruction of the confiscated weapon.
I cannot speak specifically to CCW in the 70s, but my home county was crawling with "reserve deputies" who did a minimum once a year ride along to night working I take at the jail. That let them.carry concealed. Almost all of those guys quit being reserve deputies within a year or two of shall issue permits becoming a thing. They few that hung on did so because they didn't want to pay for a permit mostly and hung on until the reserve positions were eleminated.Originally Posted by FNFAN
Law enforcement might take a dim view of ccwing, depending on the officer and the carrier. If the carrier was a known problem, no body liked them. If the officer was one who believes they had special rights that no one else better have, same dim.view no matter who you are.
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I was a police officer on LAPD starting in 1981. IIRC open carry of some sort was legal in CA then (maybe just unloaded firearms?). I recall one incident in Hollywood where we had a nutty guy (many nuts in Hollywood) who was a "human mannequin" who dressed as a cowboy complete with 2 sixguns. He would stand on Hollywood Blvd. and not move, doing his mannequin thing. I was doing a Neighborhood Watch meeting one time at his apartment building and he was whining because some Hollywood Div. cops had stopped him and impounded his sixguns. I tried explaining that the violent crime situation in Hollywood was such that it was not a good idea to open carry, legal or not, and we had an argument going when me and my partner had to run out of the meeting to respond to a help or other emergency call. Next time I saw The Cowboy on the Blvd. he was armed with toy sixguns.
A few years later I went to law school and became a prosecutor in the southeast. I noticed that the cops often did not make arrests for carrying concealed. Prosecuted a bank robbery case where a Louisiana Trooper had stopped suspect and girlfriend some days before the robbery and when asked, girlfriend said she had a handgun in her glovebox. Trooper took a look at the gun, returned it, and sent them on their way. I later called the Trooper as a witness to prove suspect had access to a real handgun resembling the one seen during the robbery. The use-of-gun charge was a big deal in that trial. I do not recall specifically what the Trooper said about the legality of the girlfriend packing around a loaded handgun in Louisiana (the trial was in Florida) but IIRC she was acting illegally but he sent her on her way anyway.
I guess the upshot is that cops back in the day had more discretion to over or under enforce the law as appropriate to local conditions.
How long did you work at LAPD? I am sure you have some interesting stories besides that one.
There were no permits where/when I grew up, so no one I knew carried a handgun except a second cousin who was a little loco. It was a rural area, so shotguns and rifles in pickups were common, and a sign of how little crime there was as none were ever stolen. A lot of business owners my dad knew kept guns in desks. One town had two cops: one on first shift and one on second shift. There was no night shift, so you could blow THE traffic light with impunity after 2300. The other town nearby had a one cop on duty around the clock. At one point the county only had two deputies on the road at a time. I doubt any of them gave a damn if you carried a gun. State troopers and city cops would not have been as generous.
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...
Until 1987. Great experience working with folks who, as a group, were as dedicated and hardworking as any public servants anywhere.
LAPD is one of those agencies I am fascinated by.
What was the academy and FTO like?
What kind of equipment were you issued then?
Thanks!
The Academy was sort of Marine boot camp type. Lots of physical stuff, running, high attrition rate. I think my class graduated 39 of 71 or 72 who started. This was after after a field background investigation that I am sure weeded out a lot of people and written psych exam and stress-type psych interview. I have worked for the feds since after law school and had all sorts of background investigations but that LAPD one was at least as thorough as any other I have had. An amusing historical note -- they still asked questions during your background interview about your sexual orientation and other sexual issues. Because I am Italian American, they asked if I had any relatives in the Mafia.
The PD was then under court order to field women unrestricted duty (patrol) officers. The women in my academy class had to be physical studs to get through. They went through a pre academy upper body strength building program but I think in my class 4 made it out of about 15 or so starting. Normal daily routine for 6 months was 1 hour of PT, 1 hour of self defense, 1 hour of shooting, and the rest academic or tactics. Also had a 2 week hi performance driving school and a few days of what they called SWAT training, which was tactics training on a movie studio back lot with SWAT officers doing building searches, room clearing, door entries, etc. In self defense, we often did "combat wrestling" which basically was a fight. That appeared to be a shock to some classmates who had never actually been in a fight. We were taught pain compliance holds, choke holds, batons, kicks, gun takeaways, as well as handcuffing, how to approach to handcuff, pat down searching, plus all the very specific, word for word commands to give to suspects. At the end of the academy, you had to appear in the gym and demonstrate all the techniques and commands on a live aggressor before a full board of the PT/self defense staff, and you could not graduate if they were unsatisfied. You not only had to demonstrate the techniques and commands, you had to demonstrate sufficient "command presence."
After graduation, you went to one of the 18 patrol divisions for your probationary tour of 1 year (6 months Academy plus 1 year in the field so probation was 1.5 years) and you were required to work with an FTO. You were assigned to an "A car" with 2 FTOs, so you always worked with one of them. It was very military. No one had "feelings" back then so you could be freely verbally abused for the slightest mistake. It was not uncommon for people to get booted for failures on probation. I later was an FTO for about 4 years and about 3 or 4 of my probationers were fired.
After a year, there was a mandatory transfer to a new patrol division, apparently so you would be regarded as a full fledged officer, not a probationer.
Equipment - In 1981 we were issued S&W M67 revolvers and all the usual other leather gear, riot helmet, etc. Everyone also carried a backup S&W revolver, usually a M60 or M36. Each shift you signed out your radios and an Ithaca M37 shotgun. Before the 1984 Olympics, we started voluntary transition to semi autos. I think there were 3 authorized. I got a Beretta 92. Holsters were a big deal. That is too long a story so I will leave that for another time. Ammo was restricted to city issued ammo which was pitiful. In that day, the Chief had almost unfettered discretion to run the PD but he was overruled by the City Council or Police Commission and we were forced to carry flat nose, semi jacketed +P .38 special ammo instead of hollowpoints. Every time the issue came up, the habitual liars at the LA Times would run an article that the PD was going to carry dum dum bullets.
One interesting point -- LAPD was the most technologically advanced agency in the US, feds included. In 1982-83, they fielded computers in the cars so you could receive calls and communicate via computer, run suspects for warrants, DL status, license plates, etc. We had an Air Support Division that I think was supposed to have 2 helos in the air at all times or maybe just peak times. LAPD officers were really good at deploying to catch fleeing suspects and using helos as a force multiplier.
The PD was severely undermanned. We had about 6500-6900 officers to cover 460 (?) square miles and 3.5 million people, many of whom were not law abiding to say the least. While I was there, the Great Crack Cocaine War that was later to engulf the rest of the US started, and of course we dealt with the unique and pervasive LA street gang issue routinely.
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