At 0 to 10 yards - yes, it is certainly possible. The type of crooks that would be up for robbing a gun store do practice IME. Many times they have been shot at and had guns pointed at them before so they are somewhat stress inoculated as well.Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra
Last edited by HCM; 11-25-2019 at 12:56 PM.
Since I am not a warrior, take this for what it is worth. In a class, an instructor had me hold him at gun point. He was going to demonstrate a side step and a draw. Now he didn't announce that, but that was the plan from the debrief. First, I'm lefty so he stepped towards my gun hand. Then I 'shot' him. The head instructor said you should known better to the 'shooter'. Later, he was avenged as when I had to walk through a door, they both immediately jumped me. I had to walk through the door without a tactical 'song and dance'. I shot both of them, they shot me in peripheral hits. Who knows what would have happened for real.
^^^There are no guarantees, even in training. In SWAT school my trainer, (former SEAL Team 6), set up a night ambush of my team as we did an entry on a cement factory in the Everglades. Using non lethal ammo available back then, he managed to hit me in the weak side forearm, while I hit him center of mass while he was hiding on a stairwell.
What would happen in the real world? I'd venture to say, more times than not, he'd have dropped me.
As mentioned above, if life and limb are not immediately in dire jeopardy and you don't have the skill, or cover / concealment to effectively take on the threat, why engage?
Circumstances will dictate what follows, but we can train our minds to evaluate various scenarios beforehand.
There's nothing civil about this war.
@HCM, thanks for clarifying; duly noted.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
Those camera angles make it hard for me to tell much about what happened, let alone what to learn specifically. But generally, the decedent stood almost completely still. Which tells me he wasn’t really prepared more than having a gun.
You ever see someone freeze in a crosswalk when they think someone is going to run into them? Deer in the headlights. Same thing. When you are that far behind the processing curve you’re going to have a hard time catching up, period.
Compressed time/problem solving under duress is a difficult skill to establish, let alone master.
To me the lesson isn’t just Get Off the X - though that is part of it, it’s that we must train and push ourselves to recognize rapidly changing environments and respond quickly. Moving targets, shoots and no shoots, force on force, it’s all part of the equation.
Without suggesting this is advice for others, and acknowledging my lack of expertise in this area, my thought process is — Ambiguity, Alternatives, and Advantage.
Ambiguity to me means is this really what it appears to be, as in, is what I think is happening really happening, and is the bad guy really the bad guy or bad guys. It would really suck to get shot or shoot someone because you were wrong about what was happening.
Alternatives to me means, can I do something else like exit or do nothing, and is this my hill to possibly die on.
Advantage to me means, when is the best moment to act decisively.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Its Houston Texas... so armed robbers have already priced in at least one instance of armed resistance. So better bring two, or three, or four bros to carry out the task.
Combined with the old adage "the bad guy is advantaged because he/she/they always have the jump..."
At those distances...looked like 3-5 yds... your speed matters a lot.
Because, at it turns out, those assailants looked like real apex types, one bullet in a c or d zone isn't gonna end the fight. And with two of them that's a shit sandwich unless you are Gabe White from concealment. So...accuracy mattered a lot too...
Didn't see any good options for cover/concealment. The counter is a bust. If you duck then you lose track of the bad guys.
All in, I'd say the best option would have been to wait for a better opportunity to intervene. Combined with better speed, better accuracy, the good guy might have prevailed.
I honestly don't believe I would resist against two guys in that situation unless I really thought I was going to die if I didn't.
From everything I've ever been taught this probably isn't the bad guy's first time being shot at and he's probably expecting it and has a plan.
It goes without saying that the typical CCW guy isn't like everyone here who trains and competes.
The level of competence of the average gun carrier is shockingly low. Someone like that is likely to lose going against two dudes who aren't in their first rodeo.
Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 11-26-2019 at 02:53 PM.
Lots of good points made.
The comments about being too close are spot on.
I remember I was co-teaching at a college LE program at the range. One of the kids said "Trooper" Can we shoot close, I am really good up close.
I chuckled and repeated what I had heard an instructor say to someone else a number of years back. " Kid, everyone shoots good up close".
Bless him for trying. For all the things he did wrong, he still stepped up.
Teddy Roosevelt.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
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