Speaking only for myself, my trepidation is specific to the 320 itself, or rather, specific to the apparent uncommanded discharges with the 320. I have multiple Sigs, and they function very well, and I like them a lot. But, before I invest in a P320, I need to be satisfied that the issue of these uncommanded discharges has been adequately addressed. At present, I'm not sure that it has.Originally Posted by GJM
I've had good luck with 320s and have carried one on duty. That means nothing in the wider context, but I have to note one observation...
...the series 70 1911. Many in the shooting community (and I dare say some PF members) are willing to carry a cocked and locked 1911 without a firing pin block, thus trusting the force of the firing pin return spring to overcome any inertial travel of the firing pin if dropped.
Honest question: is the current design iteration of the P320 objectively "safer" than a series 70 1911? If the answer is "yes", then why aren't we collectively calling out 1911 makers for endangering us?
I understand that SIG's actions as a company would reasonably leave a bad taste in one's mouth. But consider the guns and their designs alone. Am I out of line with this comparison? I'm certainly not a gunsmith and my understanding of the designs are limited to casual observations.
True series 70 pistols haven't been made since 1983. The current reproductions use lightweight firing pins that (in testing) don't have enough mass to light off a primer if dropped.
I'd also like to add that, in my understanding, 1911s in working order only go off if dropped on the muzzle. The fired round goes into the ground. In contrast, the defective P320s fire when dropped muzzle in various orientations, potentially sending the bullet into space.
That is an interesting point and I wasn't aware of it. I'm glad I asked the question.
This doesn't really give me any additional confidence in the original 1911 design as you describe it. While I write this reply, I'm sitting in a 4th floor hotel room. Were I to drop my loaded carry gun on its muzzle right now, I doubt the unfortunate folks on the 3rd floor would appreciate a round coming through their ceiling.
The July 2020 lawsuit filing uses that "uncommanded" language. It is imprecise lawyer bull shit.
There are either Negligent Discharges where the operator causes the gun to fire by what they did or failed to do or there are Accidental Discharges where the gun fires due to a mechanical failure.
It sounds like you are concerned about ADs. It's a legitimate concern.
I raise the issue because in the July 2020 lawsuit filing they used the "uncommanded' language to inflate the AD numbers by mixing in verified NDs.
If this is going to get sorted out precise language is important
Agreed. But we don't expect any other design from 1911 to meet modern standards of safety, like the Steyr-Hahn or Frommer Stop. Colt recognized the problem in the 1930s with the Swartz safety, which didn't return after commercial 1911 production resumed after WW2. For decades, when the US military even issued ammo for 1911 pistols, they were generally carried with empty chambers. I think this was a major reason US law enforcement stuck with revolvers well into the 1980s. With a couple of notable exceptions, firing pin blocks only began widespread appearance in pistols in the late 1970s. This is with the Sig P-series (1975), Beretta 92SB (1982), and second generation S&W auto pistols.
I don't think anyone here recommends that anyone carry a non-drop safe pistol. Fun fact: most rifles and shotguns have floating firing pins and are not 100% drop safe. Modern primers, correctly matched to the gun, generally prevent problems. But not always.
Last edited by john c; 11-27-2020 at 11:12 PM.
A proper built 1911, used properly, even without FPS, is safer than a P320 IMO.
As stated, the titanium firing pin / heavy spring protects it from firing when dropped on its muzzle from a reasonable distance. Also, the grip safety protects trigger bump when dropped on its back end, which is what was shown in the slo-mo videos of the P320 drop fire. If sear trip were to occur, the half cock notch will prevent the hammer from reaching the firing pin.
While holstering, the thumb safety will prevent the gun from firing if anything were to snag on the trigger. If you holster with the firing hand thumb on the back of the slide, the grip safety would also prevent such an event, should the safety not have been applied.
While I have SFA, SA, and TDA carry pistols, still to me the most comforting way to carry a semiautomatic pistol is with a blocked firing pin, and not having any spring tension stored waiting to ignite a cartridge, IE modern TDA or DA/SA.
True, but still safer then a gun that fires in multiple drop angles, and given how a handgun is weighted a drop on the muzzle is less likely. You asked if a 1911 is "safer" and I would say yes based on that, remembering that "safe" and "unsafe" is a sliding scale, not a binary state.
Others have already mentioned the current technical facts, and industry as a whole (not just the gun industry) has gotten safer over the years. I'm sure there are some people still carrying non-drop safe 1911s just like I'm sure some people are carrying non-drop safe single action revolvers. Some will carry on an empty chamber, some will not. And, like any non-drop safe gun, it won't be an issue until is it's an issue. When it's an issue it may be life altering or ending.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Do most series 70 guns now come with titanium firing pins and extra power firing pin springs?
I put both in my series 1 Kimber after I bought it.
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Based on the design of the 1911, if it’s a series 70 and I was carrying it, I’d totally spend the extra money to put in a Ti firing pin and extra power firing pin spring. The conditions necessary to ignite a primer in such a system going muzzle down would be quite substantial and HIGHLY improbable unless you’re absolutely trying to recreate it on purpose. Getting a primer to ignite when dropped in the manner a P320 could be dropped and a primer going off would be even tougher. The grip safety AND the half-cock notch would have to fail.
If you’re that concerned about it, replace those parts with forged steel parts. Still concerned? Get a series 80 Colt. Still concerned? Go TDA or revolver.
In the end, you’re still handling a firearm and, with that, you’re accepting some level of risk somewhere along the line. I don’t think carrying a 1911, firing pin block or not, is at all less safe than carrying a P320. But I’m also not you nor am I calculating what acceptable risk is for you. I do, however, think that the instances where the P320 has demonstrated to be unsafe are enough for me to acknowledge that there are other platforms out there with better track records that have been throughly vetted and therefore are demonstrably better options. Until SIG decides to become transparent and honest or someone does enough legwork to objectively show that the P320 has indeed been fixed, I don’t see the point in bothering with it.
But, then again, I’m just some B class USPSA scrub shooting a Beretta and pocket carrying a J-frame everyday. So my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for.
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