Would you trust a P320?

[DpdG]

On another note, have you seen or experienced any failures of the LE SKU P320 with Mecgar mags ? I have not.

In the fleet of 25 I maintain I’ve seen one RSA go south, plus the chrome plating on a sear began flaking/chipping off. These are LE guns delivered (but not issued) prior to dropgate that subsequently went through the upgrade program prior to being issued/fired. Round counts on both guns were fairly low- around 500 for the RSA, 2-2.5k for the sear.

[HCM]

In the fleet of 25 I maintain I’ve seen one RSA go south, plus the chrome plating on a sear began flaking/chipping off. These are LE guns delivered (but not issued) prior to dropgate that subsequently went through the upgrade program prior to being issued/fired. Round counts on both guns were fairly low- around 500 for the RSA, 2-2.5k for the sear.

To clarify I was specifically interested in the DHS SKU guns which are all post drop hate design. They also have the M17/18 coatings on the small parts.

[DpdG]

Sorry should have picked upon that.

Mine are bog standard Carry config- just through the LE side of the house. Nothing special about them. Not saying they’re bad, but hopefully the DHS ones are mo’ betta.

[HCM]

Sorry should have picked upon that.

Mine are bog standard Carry config- just through the LE side of the house. Nothing special about them. Not saying they’re bad, but hopefully the DHS ones are mo’ betta.

The coating / M17 internals are the only real difference AFAIK but so far the DHS guns have been GTG vs my somewhat mixed experience with commercial guns.

[DpdG]

The coating / M17 internals are the only real difference AFAIK but so far the DHS guns have been GTG vs my somewhat mixed experience with commercial guns.

Refresh my memory- y’all went with the XCarry-ish configuration, minus the slide cuts? Any chance of small or large X Carry grip modules?

[HCM]

Refresh my memory- y’all went with the XCarry-ish configuration, minus the slide cuts? Any chance of small or large X Carry grip modules?

That is the basic issue. The FS slide with X carry grip and the SC are also optional.

This question likely belongs in the have you seen a Bigfoot thread....

We were told small and Large X carry grips would be available and measured all our troops hands for the appropriate size when ordering their new guns. Have not seen any other sized X grips.

June 2019 factory Armorers course I was told the large exist but are hard to come by even within SIG. They said they would try to get us one. Never heard back.

My Agency recently advised that all factory OEM grip shells are authorized other than the grey one with the tungsten which SIG does not recommend for duty use. I don’t know how much the factory’s failure to deliver the small / large X grips played into it.

They changed /improved the shape of the X grip when the X Compact was released. I don’t know if that played a part in delaying the other sizes.

[Jimichanga]

What alternate options does your agency authorize and what did you select? Pure curiosity, if you can't answer it's cool.

The agency authorizes 9mm Glocks 17,19,26, 43. Sig P365 and the DHS SKU P320 if you are willing to purchase at retail price. There are a smattering of older guns grandfathered in that I don't recall. I carry the G17. It is an uninspiring tool like an Estwing hammer that you buy at Home Depot. It just does what it was designed to do.

I was under the impression, and I can't remember why, that Sig had moved all of its parts acquisition back to the U.S. (Maybe the interview Cohen did with Mas?)

***

With the rise of P320, it is suddenly economically viable to bring the small parts manufacture back to the United States. Though I doubt they'll admit it, the efforts to use off-shore MIM parts in a design not created from scratch to use them was a disaster or at least not as profitable as expected. IIRC, Sig always machined the slides and frames state side. It was the small parts that were outsourced. With the P320, the slide is still made state side. If you pull apart the firing control group, there are a lot of stainless steel parts that are not MIM. There are probably a small enough number of small parts and since the future viability of Sig rode on the P320, that they decided to avoid cutting corners. We can certainly argue that the firing control design is overly complex but that is a different discussion.

Sig is still willing to play games to shave a few pennies - that is how I see the issue of the Checkmate magazines versus the Mecgars.

I also wonder how much of the way that Sig handled the drop-safe issues were driven by their lawyers and designed to limit their legal exposure. If you offer a voluntary upgrade, that is arguably different from a mandatory recall. One is indicative of a fundamental design flaw and the other is a polite suggestion. The fact remains, that the P320 passed all of the industry standard drop tests in existence at the time.

*-it is my understanding that Sig never intended to buy Indian sourced parts. They contracted with an Israeli company who had expertise in MIM. The Israeli company also realized they could make a lot more money if they subcontracted the parts out to the Indian company.

I reread my post and I did sound overly harsh there. A Sig was my first gun, a P226 of West German origin. I still have the old girl.

I was not aware that Sig moved away from the Indian MIM sourced parts. That is definitely a step in the right direction. My reluctance stems from the track record rushing products to market and the corner cutting. That said the SKUs with rainbow, gold or diamond plate cringe-worthy big pimpin' P-series pistols did not help either. It seems for awhile there they were embracing the market of dudes who buy their guns, shoot them once and then carry them like a talisman.

As of late they have been back to innovating, the P320's modularity really is a remarkable design.

I would agree that the "voluntary upgrade" is all about the lawyers. Much like Glock did when they had issues with their NYPD G19s without an admission of fault.

In all honesty, SIG dealt with the drop safe and QC issues in a very similar manner to Glock after incidents in the early 1990s, to include failing a DEA drop test. Glock did the whole it’s an upgrade, not a recall thing decades before SIG.

On another note, have you seen or experienced any failures of the LE SKU P320 with Mecgar mags ? I have not.

I agree with you on the Glock issues. I seem to recall some shenanigans with Glock and the NYPD pistols having problems as well.

The issued P320s have run very well. I have not observed and have not been told of any malfunctions or stoppages. I was expecting more problems with the dirty training ammo and lackadaisical maintenance schedule that most of the guys have. We received a shipment of spare magazines and they were all Mecgar.

I have seen some malfunctions with personally purchased P365s. I did not think to check the origin of the magazines in those guns.

[ccmdfd]

It seems for awhile there they were embracing the market of dudes who buy their guns, shoot them once and then carry them like a talisman.

That's a pretty large group to market to; lots of money to be made with them.

cc

[KeeFus]

There have been genuine drop fire incidents, but there have also been gun go bang whilst finger fookin' it , but I'll cover it up with the dropped it/banged into a wall story.

From speaking to someone at High Point PD they've had a few issues with their 320's but CS was good. Since you're out that way...is that true? They've got a couple hundred of them I think...?

[HCM]

The agency authorizes 9mm Glocks 17,19,26, 43. Sig P365 and the DHS SKU P320 if you are willing to purchase at retail price. There are a smattering of older guns grandfathered in that I don't recall. I carry the G17. It is an uninspiring tool like an Estwing hammer that you buy at Home Depot. It just does what it was designed to do.



I reread my post and I did sound overly harsh there. A Sig was my first gun, a P226 of West German origin. I still have the old girl.

I was not aware that Sig moved away from the Indian MIM sourced parts. That is definitely a step in the right direction. My reluctance stems from the track record rushing products to market and the corner cutting. That said the SKUs with rainbow, gold or diamond plate cringe-worthy big pimpin' P-series pistols did not help either. It seems for awhile there they were embracing the market of dudes who buy their guns, shoot them once and then carry them like a talisman.

As of late they have been back to innovating, the P320's modularity really is a remarkable design.

I would agree that the "voluntary upgrade" is all about the lawyers. Much like Glock did when they had issues with their NYPD G19s without an admission of fault.



I agree with you on the Glock issues. I seem to recall some shenanigans with Glock and the NYPD pistols having problems as well.

The issued P320s have run very well. I have not observed and have not been told of any malfunctions or stoppages. I was expecting more problems with the dirty training ammo and lackadaisical maintenance schedule that most of the guys have. We received a shipment of spare magazines and they were all Mecgar.

I have seen some malfunctions with personally purchased P365s. I did not think to check the origin of the magazines in those guns.

I’ve had two commercial P365’s fail Armorer inspection due to manufacturing defects.

The disparity between the commercial and Govt P320s is interesting.

Glock’s drop safe issues and “not a recall” predated the NYPD Issues. They had to set up a trailer with a machine shop at the NYPD range to fix their G19s. Not to mention the shenanigans with G22 gen3s not running with WML.