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Thread: Would you trust a P320?

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBP55 View Post
    What is your take on the Sig P320 Professional Model L320CA-9-BXR3-PRO sold to Military and LEA supposedly made on a separate production line?
    Mags made in Italy with square notch on bottom.
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    No matter the SKU, the guns are all made with the same parts, by the same folks, unless there's a contract specifying something special (MHS pistols have coatings on some parts that aren't on commercial P320s, for instance).
    This ^^.

    Outside of contracts specifying specific parts, most gun companies don’t have a separate production line for law-enforcement guns. They may get some additional quality control checks or in the case of SIG they get Italian /Mecgar made magazines.

  2. #172
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    To answer the original question, I would trust my P320's, but only to a point. While I have not had a parts failure, there are areas that could be prone to a higher or earlier failure rate than some other manufacturers. It's not that the 320 is a POS, but it does have a more complicated firing system, with some smallish parts compared to some of the other brands, even the venerable 1911.

    Only time will tell which parts are prone to failure if any and at what cycle rate they fail. Glocks, 1911's and several others have many years of testing behind them, and parts that are prone to failure are known. I honestly don't think are many at Sig that could even tell you they honestly trust the 320 without reservation. Even my last 320 armorers course instructor agreed, time is the only telling factor of the 320's success.

    Glock went so far as to redesign their internals in the Gen5 guns to make them even less prone to failure than they already are, trigger return spring, slide lock spring, etc.

    Depending on what if anything pops up, Sig would likely build a revised version of the 320. They essentially revised it when they did the voluntary upgrade, albeit the timing and circumstances weren't what they wanted.

    The 320 will get there, in time, but it isn't there yet. It needs some seriously high round counts, be used and abused in combat theaters where it is exposed to elements and fiddling soldiers to really give it a shake out.

    What do you think the answer would be if you had asked this question about Glock back in the 80's. I would have given the same response since Glocks were in the same boat at the time. They had their issues and growing pains as well, and it took quite a while for them to build the reliability reputation that have.

    Ask me this again about the 320 in 10 years and at that point I can give you an educated and completely informed answer.


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    Last edited by Texaspoff; 01-03-2020 at 03:17 PM.
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  3. #173
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texaspoff View Post
    Only time will tell which parts are prone to failure if any and at what cycle rate they fail. Glocks, 1911's and several others have many years of testing behind them, and parts that are prone to failure are known. I honestly don't think are many at Sig that could even tell you they honestly trust the 320 without reservation. Even my last 320 armorers course instructor agreed, time is the only telling factor of the 320's success.
    Sig did have a hefty contingent of folks on their shooting team when the P320 was first released. Those folks ran a lot of rounds, live and dry, through the P320 system so I suspect we have some idea about what will fail.

    With all due respect, its a polymer frame 9mm pistol. It's not like this is territory that has never been trod upon. If the P320 was being fielded in large number in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP, I'd be more worried. We're not talking huge stresses from the 9mm cartridge. Am I the only one who remembers the 100,000 round P226s???

    It seems that Sig wanted to make the agency friendly pistol with the best striker fired trigger. They put a lot of engineering into optimizing the trigger pull. I'd argue that this design priority is what led to the drop-safe issues. I suspect that for an agency gun, fielded by LE in the United States, that may see 5,000 rounds in it's life time, the P320 will be fine. High round counts, different cartridges or use in super dusty/sandy environments may be a different story.
    Last edited by John Hearne; 01-03-2020 at 05:58 PM.
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  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    Sig did have a hefty contingent of folks on their shooting team when the P320 was first released. Those folks ran a lot of rounds, live and dry, through the P320 system so I suspect we have some idea about what will fail.

    With all due respect, its a polymer frame 9mm pistol. It's not like this is territory that has never been trod upon. If the P320 was being fielded in large number in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP, I'd be more worried. We're not talking huge stresses from the 9mm cartridge. Am I the only one who remembers the 100,000 round P226s???

    It seems that Sig wanted to make the agency friendly pistol with the best striker fired trigger. They put a lot of engineering into optimizing the trigger pull. I'd argue that this design priority is what led to the drop-safe issues. I suspect that for an agency gun, fielded by LE in the United States, that may see 5,000 rounds in it's life time, the P320 will be fine. High round counts, different cartridges or use in super dusty/sandy environments may be a different story.
    So far, the only high round counts on these guns that I am aware of are with competition folks....who are generally using the X5/X5 Legion variants. Maybe HCM or one of the other folks at an agency issuing these guns can give a better perspective on that, if they have some high round counts guys running them.

    This is one of the guns our agency is looking at to replace our legacy P226R .40's. I will also say the Sig has been.....difficult to deal with. I was somewhat surprised, frankly, how well they were received by our cops in our "hands on" shoot. 100% preferred the 320 Pro over the other pistol they shot it with. We scored their targets, and virtually all of them were more accurate with the 320 Pro as well. This process (picking a new agency sidearm) has probably been the least rewarding, most frustrating circle jerk I've ever been involved with. Ultimately someone's pet pistol isnt considered and butthurt ensues. And ultimately, we likely won't be able to pick the damn thing. Some 30 year old soft handed millenial accountants will do that for us. The constant "We're fools for not going with CZ/HK/STI!" we get from people who don't understand the importance of product support from both the manufacturer and industry (holsters, sights, etc.) is tiring. Two years.....and counting.

    ETA: this is for a 2200 officer agency.....which makes the logistical support factor fairly important.
    Last edited by AMC; 01-04-2020 at 04:52 PM.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    So far, the only high round counts on these guns that I am aware of are with competition folks....who are generally using the X5/X5 Legion variants. Maybe HCM or one of the other folks at an agency issuing these guns can give a better perspective on that, if they have some high round counts guys running them.

    This is one of the guns our agency is looking at to replace our legacy P226R .40's. I will also say the Sig has been.....difficult to deal with. I was somewhat surprised, frankly, how well they were received by our cops in our "hands on" shoot. 100% preferred the 320 Pro over the other pistol they shot it with. We scored their targets, and virtually all of them were more accurate with the 320 Pro as well. This process (picking a new agency sidearm) has probably been the least rewarding, most frustrating circle jerk I've ever been involved with. Ultimately someone's pet pistol isnt considered and butthurt ensues. And ultimately, we likely won't be able to pick the damn thing. Some 30 year old soft handed millenial accountants will do that for us. The constant "We're fools for not going with CZ/HK/STI!" we get from people who don't understand the importance of product support from both the manufacturer and industry (holsters, sights, etc.) is tiring. Two years.....and counting.
    We have only tested the P320 is up to 10,000 rounds In 250 round increments. If we get to 10,000 rounds we are supposed to turn the gun in and get another one.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    We have only tested the P320 is up to 10,000 rounds In 250 round increments. If we get to 10,000 rounds we are supposed to turn the gun in and get another one.
    Interesting. Is that schedule something your armorers came up with based on small parts breakage, wear, etc.? Or was that the practice with your previous issued sidearm? Preventative replacement?

  7. #177
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    This process (picking a new agency sidearm) has probably been the least rewarding, most frustrating circle jerk I've ever been involved with.

    ETA: this is for a 2200 officer agency.....which makes the logistical support factor fairly important.
    I'm guessing you're in CA and can almost guess which agency you are with...I pity you.

    If you have any input, any at all, I would recommend Glock. Even if you need to have an NY1 trigger to make the jackasses that run your city happy.

    I can give you (if you don't already have it) your local Glock rep's info. Larry is local and is one of of the best.

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Interesting. Is that schedule something your armorers came up with based on small parts breakage, wear, etc.? Or was that the practice with your previous issued sidearm? Preventative replacement?
    That has been standard and practice since since the mid 1990s when we adopted the Beretta 96D Brigadier but I don’t necessarily agree with it. Other than the HK USP Compact, which were beasts, 10k rounds was an unrealistic service life for .40 cal pistols to go without PMCS. Our P229s were breaking takedown levers at 6-7k. The breakages stopped when the recoil springs were changed En-mass. Prior to the 229 we issued a weapons record book and required individual users to keep round counts on all duty weapons.

    The 250 round intervals are based on the average minimum rounds extended during quarterly training and qualification.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevH View Post
    I'm guessing you're in CA and can almost guess which agency you are with...I pity you.

    If you have any input, any at all, I would recommend Glock. Even if you need to have an NY1 trigger to make the jackasses that run your city happy.

    I can give you (if you don't already have it) your local Glock rep's info. Larry is local and is one of of the best.
    We have it. Had the Gen5 guns for T&E for awhile. Range staff liked them.....they're definitely the best guns Glock has produced yet. Good triggers, grip texture nice, finish good, and the Ameriglo Agent sights as a factory option is nice, too. There is a strong anti Glock bias in some quarters in our upper ranks....and I don't feel it's a fight worth having, in that it would likely extend this process for a couple more years. There's also the age old problem of pulling the trigger to field strip the gun....not a problem for dedicated shooters, but maybe an issue for gun carriers who can barely figure out how to insert a magazine into their weapon.

    I'm well aware this is a training issue.....but training is a dirty word here, unless it includes the term "Implicit Bias". For my entire career, there has been zero in service firearms training offered to officers in our agency. You qualify twice a year on a 36 round course, with 75% passing score. I've recommended strongly a new qual, a minimum quarterly shoot, and in service training to accompany the qual. I recently instituted a training component with the qual. Two short, skill based drills. Some folks seem to think that training is unnecessary and punitive, that if an officer passes the (C-) qual, making them train is punishing them. That it is an officers own responsibility to seek out "practice", not the ranges responsibility to provide training. Sadly, some of that attitude comes from within the range staff.....and is being filtered to members of the command staff. I may be forced to stop providing firearms training to officers if that view prevails. The memo will be long and on fire, and cc'd widely, if that happens. But our problems are way bigger than what 9mm pistol we end up with.....

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    That has been standard and practice since since the mid 1990s when we adopted the Beretta 96D Brigadier but I don’t necessarily agree with it. Other than the HK USP Compact, which were beasts, 10k rounds was an unrealistic service life for .40 cal pistols to go without PMCS. Our P229s were breaking takedown levers at 6-7k. The breakages stopped when the recoil springs were changed En-mass. Prior to the 229 we issued a weapons record book and required individual users to keep round counts on all duty weapons.

    The 250 round intervals are based on the average minimum rounds extended during quarterly training and qualification.
    Nice to have resources! Our SWAT guys would be switching guns twice a year on that schedule. Our armorers have gotten better at educating our high round counts shooters on preventative maintenance. We've been breaking the 226 .40s at an accelerated rate.....cracking the frames under the grip, right side under the tang. Sig had modified the frame here to have one frame to accommodate both the traditional and DAK trigger bar, which required removing some metal. Apparently created a weak point which is showing up on our .40s. The newer guns, after they discontinued the DAK system, are beefier in that area. But we've broken everything that can be broken on a P series gun....even locking blocks.

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