Would you trust a P320?

[spinmove_]

I don’t see the point of going out of my way to put myself in the position to trust it in the first place. If you have one or are issued one, make sure it works properly and is maintained properly as well. There are other and better SFA pistols out on the market currently.

If the issue is that you need something that has reliable 10 round magazines then I’d look at something other than Glock or SIG. CZ, Beretta, HK, and maybe S&W have better options IMHO.

As long as Ron Cohen is head of SIG, SIG isn’t worth the trouble.

[98z28]

Warning: Thread drift follows. I apologize up front, though Sig's poor handling of Drogate is likely a good example of the problem discussed below.

...A well led company knows profit is earned by gaining and retaining customers. It is NOT the goal of the organization.

Profit is in fact a byproduct of making happy customers. But if that metric becomes the only goal, it leads to all kinds of strife and havoc...

No, and yes. Profit is in fact the primary goal of a corporation, though it cannot be the only meaningful metric by which managers are judged. Otherwise, you get what we've seen with Sig.

Corporations exist as stewards of owners' (shareholders') resources (money). They exist to maximize the lifetime value to owners. That means maximizing the lifetime profit of the corporation. Period. Full stop. Any other goals serve that one goal.

It turns out that treating customers and other stakeholders well is the best way we've found to maximize lifetime profit, but stating the goals the other way around leads to problems. Managers know they are judged on financial performance. Stating the corporate goals as otherwise can lead to managers treating "feel good" goals as fiction. Forgetting that the primary goal of a corporation is to maximize lifetime profit is part of what leads to poor governance and poor oversight.

This current push to define corporations as primarily fiduciaries of non-financial stakeholders is going to make problems worse, not better. Managers know that they are and will be judged and compensated otherwise. Let's be honest about the goal of the corporate form of organization so we can have an honest conversation about how to serve that goal...and so we can govern it well (referring to corporate governance, not necessarily state/federal regulation).

Dammit. I can't believe I'm drifting a thread to feed GardoneVT...

Getting this backwards matters. Corporations have too much power and influence over society to get this wrong. If Sig's board kept in mind that the managers have a strong incentive to screw customers in order to show a strong short-term profit, they'd (hopefully) keep a closer eye on things. They might even set compensation metrics that serve that goal, like the number of repeat/returning customers in addition to raw sales. Thinking that a corporation is basically good and will treat non-financial stakeholders well without strong management incentives and governance is a fantasy. It doesn't matter how you reword the vision/mission. It matters how you incentivise and oversee managers. You're only going to get that right if you are honest about the primary goal of the corporate form of organization.

[BigT]

What are the differences?

The agency I just retired from was contemplating swapping to the P320 from GG22's about 2 years ago. I currently own a fullsize .45, an X-Carry, a sub compact (w/ X-Compact grip module), and just sold my M17. I was able to fieldstrip the agency gun and finger-bang it briefly when we had it, and I can't see any obvious differences in my personal weapons (purchased either new retail or used...not LEO program).

I've been carrying my X-Carry for about a year at my new job, but just replaced it with a VP9...not due to any safety/reliability concerns, I just found that I like/shoot the H&K a little better. The X-Carry is now my bedside handgun.

I can't comment on Sig's leadership or business practices, as I don't have any knowledge of what's been going on (I know about Dropgate). But I suspect they're as shady and underhanded as the management practices of numerous large corporations.

I know military and I assume LE guns have different SKU's which apparently denote a higher(or maybe just an actual)level of QC.

When we were dealing with them a rep was adamant we had to only demo those SKu's to LE/mil clients. The models were identical otherwise.

[GJM]

For those who would not trust a 320, I wonder for how many it is because of Sig’s reputation, and for how many it is because they have actual experience shooting a 320 for thousands of rounds?

I don’t like Sig’s business style, but I see my wife’s Legion, and the Legions of my friends, successfully shooting thousands of rounds in a competitive environment.

[GlockenSpiel]

I'm not interested in carrying a single action pistol with no safety (and I'm not interested in a manual safety gun either). Minimum for me is da/sa or Glock type with a stock or heavier trigger, and maybe a SCD as well.

The P320 is *probably* reliable at this point, but even without the above criteria there is nothing to me to put it above or even on par with its competitors. I think Sig was wise to sell it to the military for so little, or else we'd be seeing it start to fade from relevance.

[kwb377]

I know military and I assume LE guns have different SKU's which apparently denote a higher(or maybe just an actual)level of QC.

When we were dealing with them a rep was adamant we had to only demo those SKu's to LE/mil clients. The models were identical otherwise.

Or maybe those SKU's indicated models specifically packaged w/ night sights and three magazines (like other manufacturers "LE" guns)?

[psalms144.1]

For those who would not trust a 320, I wonder for how many it is because of Sig’s reputation, and for how many it is because they have actual experience shooting a 320 for thousands of rounds?

I don’t like Sig’s business style, but I see my wife’s Legion, and the Legions of my friends, successfully shooting thousands of rounds in a competitive environment.

Sample size of one, but my LE-SKU P320 never got CLOSE to 1,000 rounds before it had to go back to the factory, twice, then went down the road to someone else who's more impressed with the Sig name than I am.

I've got an EXTENSIVE list of parts breakages and failures of M17 and M18 pistols in the field, most of which were NOT subjected to thousands of rounds of shooting (or ANY dry fire - God Forbid) before they went TU.

I think we're seeing the opposite of confirmation bias here, when a single sample or small number of individual pieces operate better than the whole population. If you hang out with the kinds of folks you shoot with, George, you can get a slightly skewed view of what the "average" shooter is capable of.

On the question of LE SKUs/.mil contract guns, they are exactly the same as civilian models, UNLESS the SKU or contract calls for specific deviations from base (e.g. sights, internal/external coatings, etc). That's not just for P320s, but all current production Sigs. More likely your rep has a fleet of vetted and carefully maintained "T&E" guns (or Sig maintains a pool of same) to make sure T&E guns are the best possible performers when they go out the door.

[TGS]

Of maybe those SKU's indicated models specifically packaged w/ night sights and three magazines (like other manufacturers "LE" guns)?

I guess it would be that simple if they didn't tell students in armorer classes that LEOs should only carry duty guns from LEO SKUs, not commercial, and if SIG didn't use exclusively Mec-Gar mags with LEO guns while commercial guns get a mix of Mec-Gar and lower quality Checkmate mags that are pretty well understood at this point to be problematic in the P320.

[CWM11B]

I wouldn't trust them for several reasons:

1. The company has unethical business practices
2. The head of their LE sales told me in a large group (when pressed) that there is a difference in parts and quality with their .gov/mil/le guns and the commercial offerings
3. I saw one fire when dropped (pulled bullet, primed case from a Speer GD duty round)
4. Sig knew about the issue and silently kept selling them to LE agencies, even after there had been gunshot injuries.
5. Never admitted the problem via a recall. To hell with your "voluntary upgrade"

And I have levied all of my criticism against Sig with a heavy heart. I have several West German 22x guns with thousands of rounds through them. I took a 226 to Roger's school years ago, carried and managed a fleet of about 600 2340s then 2022s (which was a superlative service pistol). The company I dealt with ceased to exist years ago.

Those are my reasons, and mine alone. Plenty disagree and I'm good with that. Plenty of folks buy their products and happily carry them. I'm fine with that too (unless you have a 320 which has not been updated, you are in range of me and have the dropsies). I'm not going to get rid of my old classics, but I'll damn sure not buy one (unless I need a training exemplar) nor recommend them for agency adoption unless and until there is a complete 180 in their corporate culture. Trust is a hard thing to regain once lost.

[BigT]

Or maybe those SKU's indicated models specifically packaged w/ night sights and three magazines (like other manufacturers "LE" guns)?

Nope not with a rifle , or a MK25 which comes with that anyway.