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Thread: Would you trust a P320?

  1. #51
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    More likely your rep has a fleet of vetted and carefully maintained "T&E" guns (or Sig maintains a pool of same) to make sure T&E guns are the best possible performers when they go out the door.
    <Nostalgic Sarcasm>

    I long for the good old days - when any old thing off the assembly line was more than acceptable for T&E, because everything was well made.

    </Sarcasm>

    Seriously though, that should be the quality goal of any manufacturer of anything. That an independent entity can pick up anything and evaluate it. No special SKUs no special deliveries, etc. The firearms world is one of the few where independent testing is still quite rare. Most LE agencies allow Reps to bring in T&E materials. It should not happen this way.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    Sample size of one, but my LE-SKU P320 never got CLOSE to 1,000 rounds before it had to go back to the factory, twice, then went down the road to someone else who's more impressed with the Sig name than I am.

    I've got an EXTENSIVE list of parts breakages and failures of M17 and M18 pistols in the field, most of which were NOT subjected to thousands of rounds of shooting (or ANY dry fire - God Forbid) before they went TU.
    This is the kind of information that is helpful — what year was your 320 manufactured and what were the problems you had to return your pistol for? I would also be curious on the information on M17/18 failures.

    Not sure how you define sample size, but as I understand it, Sig sold 2,000 Legions in just the first few days it became available, and a high percentage of those are used in competition with corresponding high round counts. Since then, they have sold a lot more, and the Legion is probably the single most common CO pistol in USPSA these days. There are ten of them I am quite familiar with, as they are being shot by my wife and a small group of friends. None have needed to go back to Sig. Reading Enos, while there are the occasional problems, all in all, they seem to be running.

    As to corporate ethics and customer service, while I would never encourage someone to buy a Sig based on their conduct lately, I still remember the same day some years back when I called S&W and Glock. When I reported accuracy problems with my M&P, the rep said that was the first he had heard of that. When I reported reliability issues with a new released Gen 4, the Glock rep said that was the first time he had heard of such a thing, but he would send me a new RSA. HK took just five years to get me a V7 plate into the US, rendering my multiple HK45 pistols not carry-able as I would decock the hammer with my normal firing grip.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #53
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    George - my X-Carry was a 2018 production. Dead trigger issues initially after disassembly/reassembly, and a variety of extraction/ejection issues.

    In the field with issued pistols, lots of magazine-related reliability issues, parts breakages (RSAs, safeties are the two biggies). We've seen one pistol turn into component parts of the FCU on the range (cause still TBD), and have heard of several other LE guns failing spectacularly, including one that had to be literally hammered open after being immersed in silty creek water.

    I totally concur that no maker is stink-less - I sold all my Glocks in 2012 after the Gen4 roll out fiasco, but if I had to grab a striker fired 9mm out of the box today, it would be a Gen5 G19. I just don't think, in my heart of hearts, that the P320 is ready for prime time today. In a couple more years, as folks (including LE and military) continue to serve as unpaid beta testers, and all the bugs shake out, I think it will be a strong contender. Of course, that's what I thought about the P250 as well, and we know how that ended up...

    Meanwhile, just to be contrarian, I'm carrying a DW Guardian or CCO nowadays, becuz 'Merica!

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    George - my X-Carry was a 2018 production. Dead trigger issues initially after disassembly/reassembly, and a variety of extraction/ejection issues.

    In the field with issued pistols, lots of magazine-related reliability issues, parts breakages (RSAs, safeties are the two biggies). We've seen one pistol turn into component parts of the FCU on the range (cause still TBD), and have heard of several other LE guns failing spectacularly, including one that had to be literally hammered open after being immersed in silty creek water.

    I totally concur that no maker is stink-less - I sold all my Glocks in 2012 after the Gen4 roll out fiasco, but if I had to grab a striker fired 9mm out of the box today, it would be a Gen5 G19. I just don't think, in my heart of hearts, that the P320 is ready for prime time today. In a couple more years, as folks (including LE and military) continue to serve as unpaid beta testers, and all the bugs shake out, I think it will be a strong contender. Of course, that's what I thought about the P250 as well, and we know how that ended up...

    Meanwhile, just to be contrarian, I'm carrying a DW Guardian or CCO nowadays, becuz 'Merica!
    I think you make a great point as to product maturity, and a Glock today is a lot better than a early gen 4, and a M&P is likely a better pistol today. Sig, like many companies, uses us as their beta testers and early adopters take lots of arrows. Of course, there can also be the problem where cost cutters go at things like a post 64 model 70 or the P series pistols.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    I know military and I assume LE guns have different SKU's which apparently denote a higher(or maybe just an actual)level of QC.
    There's probably a dozen reasons why something has a different SKU based on the customer. I've never (in 25 yrs in mfg) seen a different SKU assigned to a product just because it has a higher level of "QC" (another overused, little understood gun forum acronym).

    Not saying you're wrong. Just saying it's unlikely you're right.

  6. #56
    CWM11B
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    What came of the calls, if I may ask? Your one call may have been the first. When I asked Smith about the accuracy issue in the 9mm, I was told they guaranteed 3"@ 25 yards. The guns did that. When we transitioned to the M&P 9 from the .40, Smith botched the order by not putting an upgraded fire control group in. Two days as after being notified our district sales rep, another territory guy, and the national director of LE sales showed up with parts bins and tool boxes. For two days they went through every single new pistol and replaced the parts that needed. No questions asked, and profuse apologies given, along with the big guy delivering a solid tounge lashing via phonecon to Springfueld.

    Contrast with a very good friend and colleague in another agency with the 320. Drop fire denied until he showed them with one of their fielded pistols. Runaround until legal got involved and a threat to drop the gun. Sig replaced every single pistol, but with significant hassle (300+ units). To be fair, they are otherwise happy with the platform. It's not my city, tax dollars, or business so I dont care. I'd have ditched them though.

    Second agency nearby had significant issues with delivery and function. I dont know anybody there but my bud does a lot of things with and for them. They got the run around on the drop issue too. Finally came down to top brass, city legal and Sig corporate at the table. Long and short of it, 320s stayed in the agency's holsters only for the time it took 800 G17s to be delivered. Sig was required by contract to take the 320s back.

    I'm sure there are guns out there running. I know plenty if folks like them. Maybe they are finally good to go now and kicking ass all over the competition circuit (which I attribute to the shooter, not the gun, regardless of make). But I know Sig cuts corners and denies/lies about issues. I've also noticed a couple of well known industry names were pimping it pretty hard but have gone pretty quiet of late. The original question was over trusting the platform. I dont, nor, frankly, any of their offerings of the last several years. And it is going a lot to change my mind

  7. #57
    If you put all the sentiments aside, the P320 with the recall upgrades are good to go but I think it is important to get those upgrades performed. One of the recurring themes with the P320 I noticed was that they are accurate pistols.

    Now, this is where I add in the emotional sentiments because humans are not exclusively logical. Sig Sauer has done a lot of things to erode people's confidence in their products. Carrying a pistol for protection is serious issue and you have to feel completely confident in your equipment. However, not all emotional based opinions are rational. All my Glock's I feel rock solid about. My Beretta Elite LTT is based on one of the top three most tested and proven pistols in the world. The M&P had been around since 2005 and internally hasn't changed and it's a rock solid pistol. We are in a glut for pistol choices in every configuration you could think of.

    If you go with the P320 don't worry about it and make sure you fully inspect the pistol for defects. Especially the barrel crown. Follow firearms safety and you'll be fine.

  8. #58
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zpelletier View Post
    Would you trust a P320?
    Short answer? No

  9. #59
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Some background-In the 1990s/early 2000s, I owned and used a significant portion of the P-Series offerings-2 P220s (a 9mm and a .45 ACP), 2 P229s, a P228, a Sigpro2340, a P225, a GSR XO and a P210-6. The P229s and Sigpro 2340 were in both .40 and .357 SIG.

    Gradually, I drifted away from SIGs and into Glocks. My most heavily used (and preferred) SIG out of the bunch was the P225, but that developed systemic magazine feed lip spread, inducing feed jams when reloading; which after much effort and analysis, SIG advised that the best course of action was to download the magazines by 1-2 rounds (the current P225 apparently uses a magazine modified from the previous P239). SIG was totally supportive, and most of mine had action jobs performed by the Custom Ship, providing superb triggerpulls. Other than the P225 magazine issues, reliability and durability was excellent.

    While my GSR XO was one of the earlies of the "Series 2" GSR, possessing all the OEM high grade components (no MIM), I observed the slippery slope SIG speedily went down post 2006 with the GSR/1911 and then the other P-Series guns, substituting increasing amounts of mid-quality MIM components and reportedly decreased QC. Then came the initial P250 debacles, with the gun adopted and then quickly dropped by FAM and the Dutch National Police (although my understanding from p-f members is that the revised P250 was actually a pretty decent gun). Then came the P320; while I don't blame the M17/M18 oddities and kerfluffles on SIG (that burden lies squarely on DoD and the testers/testing protocols), I was pretty incensed over not just the P320 Dropgate, but how 1) SIG knew about the issue(s), fixed the military ones, but knowledgeably , if not in fact deliberately let unmodified ones into the commercial/LEO market stream, and then went into the denial mode and 2) Came up with a half-assed end-user voluntary retro-fit program rather than a full-blown recall.

    For the past several years, the only SIG that I felt I could unequivocally recommend was the SP2022 Sigpro, due to it's inherent quality, and continuous QC apparently piggy-backing on French government contract.

    Jump to October 2019. I won a NSSF Gearbox-the SIG-Sauer Gearbox contest, which provided me with a P320 RX Compact and a M400 Tread AR15, complete with a heavy number of upgrades from SIG. I decided, thanks to SIGs and NSSFs largesse that I would give these two SIGs a fair and open-minded review. So far, I'm much more impressed than I expected to be, with both weapons.

    The P320 has proven to be a flawless pistol to date, although I have a relatively low roundcount on it, around 450 rounds. I'm noticeably and quantifiably shooting better (faster, and almost as accurately) with it than some of my other preferred platforms-primarily doubtlessly due to the Romeo1 RDS, but I'll give the basic gun its due. I'm impressed that the BUIS are not just suppressor height, but with tritium inserts, a nice low-light use feature.

    My experiences with the M400 Tread rifle are similar, once I got an improperly assembled bolt carrier assembly issue resolved (the firing pin cotter pin was jammed in and bent, making bolt disassembly impossible and possibly inducing operational issues, but since I discovered it as part of my initial reception inspect/clean/lube protocol and took it to a gunsmith who speedily resolved it, I'll never know if in fact there would have been operational issues). Other than that hiccup, the M400 Tread strikes me as being a high quality, accurate, ergonomic well made and assembled rifle, all the more impressive in that it's a sub-$1K rifle intended to be an entry-level AR15.

    So, given my sample size of 1, I would say that yes, I do trust the current P320, and am comfortable carrying it for EDC, duty and IDPA. Mine is an October 2019 production gun, with Italian MecGar magazines.

    Best, Jon

  10. #60
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zpelletier View Post
    How do you feel? Or is it better sticking with a more reliable brand like HK (not glock since I live in CT)?
    Born and raised in CT. Left shortly after new AWB. I thought about what I would have done if I had stayed. Likely would be rocking G48s/26s and M&P45s. M&P9s for range time. HK is a good alternative, too.

    As for SIG, I have a buddy that was an engineer for them. He had lots of horror stories. I would not trust the P320 or any other new SIG product for self-defense, and don't plan to give them any of my money any time soon.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 11-25-2019 at 02:08 PM.

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