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Thread: .38 Special Snubby Ammo - Findings, Thoughts and Impressions

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post
    Yeah, rev, I remember those complaints―albeit kind of vaguely―what was the twist rate? 1 rotation in 16" or something along those lines?
    It was 1 in 18-3/4", the same as S&W .357 bore revolvers...like the M36 that stabilized the 200-grain LRN just fine at 600 fps.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    It was 1 in 18-3/4", the same as S&W .357 bore revolvers...like the M36 that stabilized the 200-grain LRN just fine at 600 fps.
    Yeah, now I dismember...geez, too young to be forgetting stuff like that already. In any event, 1 rotation in 18 3/4 inches is more than enough to stabilize a very short bullet like the 115-grain 9mm FMJ/JHP against its overturning moment.
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 12-27-2019 at 02:26 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    Actually, from what I've read, a 200-grain .38 Special at about 600 fps from a snubbie was a thing for a while.

    Attachment 46410
    Using the "expedient equation" from the excellent Quantitative Ammunition Selection by the Schwartz, I get a predicted penetration of 29" for one of those heavy RN bullets. And the predicted wound mass is 34 grams. Of course, without tumbling or deforming, penetration is likely through and through and much of that predicted wound mass will be wounding thin air. So, I think of it more as a "potential" wound mass.

    For what it's worth, Western also once loaded the same 200 grain bullet in the .38 S&W cartridge to be used in solid frame revolvers only. Hatcher lists that load at 610 ft/s from a 6" barrel -- so, maybe 550 ft/s from a snubby. That gives a predicted 26" of penetration and potential wound mass of 31 grams. That's not bad from a cartridge some refer to as the .38 Short & Weak. But if they had simply traded that big RN for a 200 grain hard-cast wadcutter they could have dropped the penetration to about 21" and upped the wound mass to 37 grams. Loaded in the little S&W I-frame (a bit smaller than a J-frame) "Terrier" snubby, it would have made a pretty nasty pocket pistol for the mid-1930s.
    Last edited by pettypace; 12-28-2019 at 04:12 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post
    Using the "expedient equation" from the excellent Quantitative Ammunition Selection by the Schwartz, I get a predicted penetration of 29" for one of those heavy RN bullets. And the predicted wound mass is 34 grams. Of course, without tumbling or deforming, penetration is likely through and through and much of that predicted wound mass will be wounding thin air. So, I think of it more as a "potential" wound mass.

    For what it's worth, Western also once loaded the same 200 grain bullet in the .38 S&W cartridge to be used in solid frame revolvers only. Hatcher lists that load at 610 ft/s from a 6" barrel -- so, maybe 550 ft/s from a snubby. That gives a predicted 26" of penetration and potential wound mass of 31 grams. That's not bad from a cartridge some refer to as the .38 Short & Weak. But if they had simply traded that big RN for a 200 grain hard-cast wadcutter they could have dropped the penetration to about 21" and upped the wound mass to 37 grams. Loaded in the little S&W I-frame (a bit smaller than a J-frame) "Terrier" snubby, it would have made a pretty nasty pocket pistol for the mid-1930s.
    Thanks.

    Running the Western .38S&W projectile as a .358", 200-grain LRN at 610 fps through all three bullet penetration models, the predicted values for maximum penetration depth (PEN in inches) and total wound mass (TWM in grams) are:

    Q-model: PEN: 29.30 inches; TWM: 34.60 grams

    mTHOR: PEN: 28.74 inches; TWM: 33.94 grams

    MacPherson: PEN: 30.86 inches; TWM: 36.53 grams
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  5. #105
    I just checked the Buffalo Bore web site and was surprised to find they offer a pretty fierce load for the .38 S&W (not the .38 Special!): a 125 grain hard cast SWC at 1030 ft/s from a 6" barrel and 874 ft/s from a snubby. From their ad:

    Depending on how much clothing must be penetrated and how much bone is encountered, expect 22 to 30 inches of straight-line penetration in mammalian tissue with this load.
    I'm guessing what that range of penetration really depends on is barrel length. But OK.

    From a snubby I get about 24" of penetration and about 27 grams of wound mass for the BB load.

    So, what if BB had instead loaded a 200 grain wadcutter at, say, just 500 ft/s? For that, I get about 20" of penetration and 34 grams of wound mass. Seems to me that would be a more effective load, except maybe through windshield glass.

    Someone earlier in this thread mentioned avoiding some fierce BB wadcutter load for the .38 Special because of excessive recoil. So, I wondered how the recoil energy of their 125 gr SWC @ 874 ft/s .38 S&W load would compare to a suggested 200 gr WC @ 500 ft/s. I had to go back to Hatcher to refresh my memory of recoil energy. But it looks like you just compare the squares of the momenta. So, I hope I'm doing this right:

    (200*500)^2/(125*874)^2 ==> 0.84

    I think that means the suggested heavy wadcutter at low velocity load would have only about 84% of the felt recoil of the fierce BB load. That looks like a win-win-win to me: less (over)penetration, less felt recoil, and more wound mass. What's not to like about that?
    Last edited by pettypace; 12-28-2019 at 10:19 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    I've settled on a handload for my 642. The carry load is Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P, which chronos at 941 fps from my gun. The handload is a 125-grain coated LTC from Missouri Bullets over 4.8 grains of HP-38, which Hodgdon gives as a max standard-pressure load. It runs right at 800 fps. 100 rounds of this in a practice session is no problem, accuracy is fine, fouling comes out with a bore snake and it has the same POI as the GS load.

    Have you or anyone else seen any credible testing of the Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P round in a snubby? It seems to compare favorably with some of Doc's recommended rounds in the Lucky Gunner tests and performs similarly in an old tnoutdoors9 test. But of course these are amateur tests done with synthetic gel so the results are somewhat suspect.

    I have several boxes of these and they shoot well in my S&W 638.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4given View Post
    Have you or anyone else seen any credible testing of the Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P round in a snubby? It seems to compare favorably with some of Doc's recommended rounds in the Lucky Gunner tests and performs similarly in an old tnoutdoors9 test. But of course these are amateur tests done with synthetic gel so the results are somewhat suspect.

    I have several boxes of these and they shoot well in my S&W 638.
    I have not. I chose them because penetration and expansion were very close to the Winchester Ranger load in the Lucky Gunner test and they’re usually available, which can’t be said for the Winchester load. I might switch to the Winchester load when I find some, the GS load is too long to work with speedloaders. That’s not a major issue with J frames, but it’d be nice to have that option.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duelist View Post
    I *assumed* there was a typo - either on the bullet weight, or on which bullet shape. I haven’t seen a 158gr full wadcutter, but I’m sure it could be done.
    I’ve cast some 171-grain .38 wadcutters by leaving the plug in an M&P hollow base mould.

    I haven’t done any ballistic testing, but they shot OK.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by 4given View Post
    Have you or anyone else seen any credible testing of the Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P round in a snubby?
    http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns...Selection.html

  10. #110
    The Golden Sabers seem to only penetrate around the 10" mark. Anybody here use the Double Tap Hardcast 148gr WC? They have them in stock at my LGS.

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