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Thread: Southnarc's Video on Police Commands at Gunpoint

  1. #11
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    I appreciate the learning opportunity afforded by this video. Thank you.

    Also, I hadn’t seen the Shaver video. Now I have, and read that the officer claims ptsd and has been retired with a pension. That’s really something.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapid Butterfly View Post
    Also, I hadn’t seen the Shaver video. Now I have, and read that the officer claims ptsd and has been retired with a pension. That’s really something.
    Why?
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #13
    I've never been held at gunpoint, thankfully. I'd certainly like to keep it that way. Having said that, the limited exposure I have in training to being issued commands after (simulated) violence was done by some people who seem to be quite good at their jobs, and I was not asked to play a game of Twister in order to comply and not get shot.

    My thought is to immediately put the gun away once I have determined it is safe to do so (i.e. immediate threat has ended and no additional threats appear), and if confronted with "drop the gun," to drop the gun immediately. Given my injuries, getting on my knees without the benefit of using my arms for balance has the potential for me to need to catch my balance -- which could be interpreted as a furtive movement.

    So far, when presented with a command(s) that is unsafe or unreasonable to follow, freezing -- while unarmed -- seems to be the consensus here. I appreciate the input.

  4. #14
    "I would never drop my gun"

    **cough, SIG P320, cough**
    David S.

  5. #15
    Piss poor training and piss poor mindset and preparedness increases the potential for confusion an exponential amount.

    I have told guys on my squad to shut the fuck up (politely) when everyone starts yelling at once. Usually this happens with the new guys that are all amped up the first time they see a guy with a gun.

    Once someone starts talking, EVERYONE ELSE STOPS. Don't tunnel vision and focus on JUST the guy or the gun. Be aware of your surroundings and focus on what your guys are doing and back them up accordingly.

    The person talking has lethal cover along with essentially everyone else. If you're not talking, you should be getting into a position where you can designate that you're going to go hands on. If your department policy/training/protocol calls for it, a second guy/gal should be less than lethal covering down while the subject is moved into a position of relative "safety" to be taken into custody.

    IF you have issues as a subject being given commands, you MAY voice your issues but you need to face the reality that regardless of what your injuries may be and how well you verbalize it, given the nature of the potential threat, the totality of the circumstances etc, you MAY be placed where and how you dont want to be placed. This is one of the side effects of carrying a weapon that no one ever talks about. Even if you're the good guy, until we KNOW you're the good guy, you're going to get treated like an armed threat, PERIOD. The time to ascertain who the good guy is will NOT be during the apprehension stage.

    I hope everyone reading this can sympathize with the position that Law Enforcement MUST take when it comes to armed threats.
    Last edited by Magsz; 11-21-2019 at 09:38 PM.

  6. #16
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    "I would never drop my gun"

    **cough, SIG P320, cough**
    And again...


  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Magsz View Post
    Even if you're the good guy, until we KNOW you're the good guy, you're going to get treated like an armed threat, PERIOD. The time to ascertain who the good guy is will NOT be during the apprehension stage.

    I hope everyone reading this can sympathize with the position that Law Enforcement MUST take when it comes to armed threats.
    Magsz I'm curious how long you've been on the job and exactly what you do in LE and where? You're words may ring true in an inner city beat. Not so much for a Park Ranger coming up on a group of hunters spot-lighting deer.

    Do you automatically equate armed with threat?

    That's certainly not the case with a SOF dude or an I/C case officer having chai with a bunch of Pashtuns OCONUS.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Magsz I'm curious how long you've been on the job and exactly what you do in LE and where? You're words may ring true in an inner city beat. Not so much for a Park Ranger coming up on a group of hunters spot-lighting deer.

    Do you automatically equate armed with threat?

    That's certainly not the case with a SOF dude or an I/C case officer having chai with a bunch of Pashtuns OCONUS.
    My apologies. I may have spoken in absolutes as I may have misunderstood the intent of this thread. I was under the impression that given that we (LE) were giving commands that we were dealing with an armed subject (friend or foe to be determined later or on the spot should the situation rise to the use of deadly force). Circumstances will decide the answer to your question. No, not everyone armed is a threat but in THIS particular instance where we are giving commands, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that the individual COULD be a threat and should be treated as such. In this case I am a victim of my experience as my norm is not the hunter out in the woods. Its the shit bagel doing shit bagel stuff.

    Again, my norm is not the scope of my experience as I've had to deal with the Florida Fishing Crew, aka the fella's pushing their luck to either become Youtube famous or file a frivolous law suit when a Deputy or Cop decides to violate their right of open carry. Not everyone carrying a weapon is a threat but again, in the scope of the discussion I assumed we were talking about a very specific scenario. if I was off base here I hope that this post clarifies my standpoint.

    Craig, ill PM you specifics. For anyone curious I've been a Road Patrol Deputy for four years in a very busy and violent South Florida city where you have a one in eighty chance of being robbed. Those stats...suck but we are working to improve them.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Magsz; 11-22-2019 at 01:45 AM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    snip
    I'm glad you involved yourself with this discussion. If you don't mind I have a question. As I mentioned in my other post I'm not getting on my knees with my hands on top of my head. It's physically impossible I can't do it. So when you're taking me into custody and you tell me to get on my knees what do I do?

    What are you going to do if I tell you that I have a bad leg and I can't get in that position?

    Should I just stoop down as far as I can and fall face down on the ground?

  10. #20
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    This thread reinforces my belief that the first command from an officer should be "Police! Don't move!". We can decide to walk-them-back/prone-them-ou/whatever after that with one officer issuing commands.

    While I hate to agree with that goofy leftist chief from Vermont and--shudder--PERF, reducing the numbers of cops shouting will also reduce the chances of a suicide-by-cop by mentally ill subjects stressed by the event they caused.

    I will also comment once again that a siren box programmed to silence the siren when the cruiser is put in park is worth its weight in powder cocaine.

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