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Thread: Southnarc's Video on Police Commands at Gunpoint

  1. #21
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    With the understanding context is going to vary for how much time for observation and alternate commands to be given if you claim an injury (ie, active shooter scene with multiple reported gunmen vs a you're alone in a parking lot a few blocks away from a robbery that just occurred and happen to meet the description) remember thugs lie about physical limitations in order to buy time to look for escape routes or plan assaults on officers. Sometimes just because they figure it'll make the arrest more comfortable. They don't want to sit on the cold ground so they just had knee surgery. They want two sets of cuffs so they just had shoulder surgery. The vast majority are not being truthful. Human nature says when the last 90 people lied to you, it's hard to empathize with and believe #91.

    Also remember auditory exclusion and cognitive loads. The brain has limiting computing power. The active shooter scenario demands much more attention then the lone suspect in the parking lot. In the second instance you are more likely to be heard and be understood. In the first there may be so many things going on and so much attention switching that the brain won't take the time to process auditory input. Your claims of not being able to comply may fall on literally deaf ears.

    So, in some circumstances, you may be given quite a bit of leeway and alternate commands might be used to work around your claimed limitations. In others you may want to ask yourself "can I get on my knees if my life depends on it" because it might if another armed good guy (LE or not) has decided your a potential bad guy and has you at gunpoint.

    My broad recommendation is to evaluate the state of the person giving commands. If they are running right at the edge, I'm keeping my mouth shut. I'm not adding to their cognitive load and I'm not going to throw anything into their OODA loop that I can avoid. Two way conversation takes more brain power. Adjusting to non-compliance when compliance was expected takes brain power. Someone operating at 99% already who's pointing a gun at me, well, I don't want to push them further. If, however, they present as in control of themselves and capable of a bit more load, then I'll comply and ID myself or otherwise verbally engage.

    Speaking of OODA loop, not being caught in one yourself helps immensely. Hopefully you will know the police are coming and won't be surprised by their presence. Maintaining a calm demeanor yourself, not being armed or in a fighting stance upon their arrival, etc. will put "good first impression" on your side and that helps put their subconscious mind on your side as well. Remembering the subconscious may be driving a lot of the show it the conscious is overwhelmed, that's a good thing.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I'm glad you involved yourself with this discussion. If you don't mind I have a question. As I mentioned in my other post I'm not getting on my knees with my hands on top of my head. It's physically impossible I can't do it. So when you're taking me into custody and you tell me to get on my knees what do I do?

    What are you going to do if I tell you that I have a bad leg and I can't get in that position?

    Should I just stoop down as far as I can and fall face down on the ground?

    Those are great questions Cypher and I don't have a single definitive answer for you. That was kind of the gist of the video.

    Here's my general advice right now....today.

    The best way not to get shot by LE is to not have a gun in your hand when they show up. It has always amused me when I've heard SD pundits say things like "Well....for a citizen...holstering is an administrative function". I've always thought that was bullshit. Sometimes there's a very real need to put a gun away right now.

    Like Dan said if you're told to drop a gun drop it. Don't drop it like it's a hot potato that just scalded you either. Just open your hand without throwing it, jumping around or making any nervous, twitchy, or frenetic movement.

    Keep ALL of your movement glacially slow. Think of yourself as a sloth doing Tai Chi.

    Read the tone of the officer giving you instructions. Does he sound in control, out of control, nervous, out of breath, mad, etc.?

    Comply as best as you can. If he hasn't given you specific instructions try asking for them. If you're kneeling and he says "On your face" like with me in the video I posted you MIGHT be able to say "Can I use my hands to get face down officer? If I don't I'll bust my face open and I don't want to get hurt"

    That's if he'll listen and isn't screaming at you. If he is and DOESN'T sound like he's in control then you might end up planting on your face.

    Doing absolutely nothing when presented with conflicting or poorly worded verbal commands that you cannot comply with MAY very well buy you time to speak, be heard, and let them know you either don't know what to do or physically can't do what they are telling you to.

    OR.....your "non-compliance" may very well get you tackled, tased, or a healthy application of the wood shampoo.

    There's not a single cookie cutter answer for this problem.
    Last edited by SouthNarc; 11-22-2019 at 08:53 AM.

  3. #23
    :::cross-posted with BBI:::

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    :::cross-posted with BBI:::
    Thanks for your response. Getting tackled, tased or popped in the head with a nightstick beads getting shot

  5. #25
    I don’t know of a single place you could even pay to get this type of info online from legit, active SMEs. Fuck I love this place!

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    If he is and DOESN'T sound like he's in control then you might end up planting on your face.
    I just want to point out that it takes a certain kind of person to do a mental calculation that face-planting is the safest route and be willing to face-plant. Regular people are just going to use their hands even if contrary to instruction. That's just the reality, and I think you kinda said this when discussing it, but it's worth re-iterating.
    Last edited by TheRoland; 11-22-2019 at 06:44 PM.

  7. #27
    Thank you all for the input.

  8. #28
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    I liked the video. A lot.

    I am coming from the other side of the discussion. I have been an FTO for the last 16 years, and a prolific one. Nearly half of our new hires during that time have come through me. I will have to check the roster, but that is 40-50 cops, laterals and recruits. Picture the last person you would want taking you into custody at gunpoint. Finger on the trigger, not processing and getting stuck in a verbal loop, kinda confused and thick headed...I work/ have worked with him or her.

    I want my future trainees watching this vid.

    Many of SouthNarc's points I have come to on my own watching actual police doing what they would have said is actual police work. I am willing to take an armbar to the ground instead of being shot. No matter how much it hurts, or how much damage is done, it is less damage and pain than being shot. I am kinda surprised that this has to be taught, but honest cops will likely acknowledge that too few give thought to it.

    When cops get locked into the verbal loop they tend to not be processing any more. I am the guy that will walk up, tell them to shut up, remember contact/cover and let me give the commands. Commands are not going to be followed immediately, nor exactly. Pick one. The goal is to get someone into a position where they are at enough disadvantage to approach, stabilize, and secure. They gonna use their hands to get on thier face? Probably. Is that non compliance? Hell no, they are going to their face. They got a gun in a holster? Leave it there. They are complying. Secure the gun after securing the person. They go to their knees and not the prone? They are compliant and can be secured there, or dumped if necessary based on the situation. Like BBI said, many will lie to seek advantage, but even when they do we have to repond appropriately.

    Most cops will deny it based on training and mindset, but the bad guy has a say in what is going on, as Cecil likes to point out. We have to adapt to what is presented to us, and still finish the mission. In the recent past I posted about cornering a burglary suspect, and getting into another foot pursuit when his surrender proved to be a ruse. By myself confronting a felon, I would do it the same way again. I decide when I have enough of an advantage. I have to gauge the suspect's compliance level, and anything over about 40-50% is a win. Till it isn't.

    I seem to recall something about this being a dangerous job. If it weren't I wouldn't have to wear body armor daily, nor carry a gun.

    Sorry, just a few thoughts. It is past my bed time.

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 11-23-2019 at 02:29 PM.

  9. #29
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    In my salad days, I was very much into arrest and control techniques. Anyone I hooked up in the early 1980's thought they were vacationing in Southern California because I was experimenting with all sorts of LAPD/CHP arrest techniques. No criticism of California arrest techniques, but no Maryland dirtbag has any clue what "interlock" means unless he or she has been ordered to have one installed on his car after a DWI arrest. I guess the CHP procedure of right hand behind the head and left hand behind the back works for them better than it did for me. That said, I wasn't that surprised to see a suspect spin out of that position on an episode of "Real Stories of the Highway Patrol" some years later.

    My point, and I'll eventually come to it, is that simple is better until it is not and that speed usually works until one is too fast. Bad guys are going to be drunk, jacked up, be in auditory exclusion, and perhaps not speak English very well or even at all. Your fellow officers, hopefully not quite the same way, but with the latest academy class, who knows? (For young cops who hit pistol-forum and I hope more do, I'm just busting your chops. Nothing but respect...)

    Keep it simple. Commands such as "stop" and "don't move" are a much better start to things than "Hands", "Get down", or even "On your knees". Try to get the bad guy (who may, of course, be a good guy) stopped and slow thibgs down.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRoland View Post
    I just want to point out that it takes a certain kind of person to do a mental calculation that face-planting is the safest route and be willing to face-plant. Regular people are just going to use their hands even if contrary to instruction. That's just the reality, and I think you kinda said this when discussing it, but it's worth re-iterating.
    Along with this, since it hasn't been said upthread, at the very least do not get down on the ground anywhere close to your dropped weapon.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
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