Southnarc's Video on Police Commands at Gunpoint

[ssb]

Tamara linked a video from Southnarc that I found thought-provoking, which I've attached below:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B5ADGhh...ource=ig_embed

Given the points raised in the video -- particularly the hazards of being issued contradictory or otherwise difficult-to-comply-with commands by LE at gunpoint -- I'd be interested in a discussion from our LE members on the most prudent courses of action for an armed citizen being issued commands by LE. I don't wish for this to turn into a rehash of the Daniel Shaver shooting, but could we have a discussion by professionals on best practices for an armed citizen to comply safely once the police arrive?

[WobblyPossum]

Tamara linked a video from Southnarc that I found thought-provoking, which I've attached below:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B5ADGhh...ource=ig_embed

Given the points raised in the video -- particularly the hazards of being issued contradictory or otherwise difficult-to-comply-with commands by LE at gunpoint -- I'd be interested in a discussion from our LE members on the most prudent courses of action for an armed citizen being issued commands by LE. I don't wish for this to turn into a rehash of the Daniel Shaver shooting, but could we have a discussion by professionals on best practices for an armed citizen to comply safely once the police arrive?

This segment of the class definitely appeared to open some eyes when Craig brought it up. It’s not something most CCW folks think about. One thing that I don’t think can reasonably be argued is that as soon as you hear a responding LEO tell you to “drop the gun,” you should drop the gun. You shouldn’t reholster it. You shouldn’t bend down to place it on the floor gently to avoid scratching the finish. When the police tell you to drop the gun, any action that isn’t dropping the gun may get you shot.

If you get lucky and the officers who respond to your incident are experienced and comfortable giving commands with guns in their hands, you shouldn’t hear contradictory commands from multiple officers. Best practice is for one officer to take control and issue commands. In this case, you just follow the commands issued by that one officer to the best of your ability. You do it slowly without making any movements that could be described as “furtive.”

The scary scenario is the one presented in the video. If you have multiple officers issuing you contradictory commands and it sounds to you like at least one of those officers isn’t totally in control of his/her emotions, you’re in a bad spot. I like the idea of following the command to drop the gun, keeping your hands visible, and then not making any further movements. Maybe the officers get tired of screaming at you. Maybe an experienced officer gets to the scene and can take control to issue effective commands. If you get the opportunity to speak, let the officers know that they are issuing contradictory commands and you don’t know what to do. Do this in as calm of a voice as you can manage without making any sudden movements or getting your hands out of view.

[Cypher]

I get yelled at by the cops a couple of times a month. I make damn sure my hands are empty and I keep them visible and start repeating LOUDLY, "I'm security. I'm an agent of the property owner. I'm supposed to be here."

My bright yellow safety vest usually registers after the second or third time I say it.

If I wasn't at work I'd stop cold, put my EMPTY hands straight up and freeze. I'd rather get knocked down than shot.

ETA this may not apply to anyone else but the last time it happened the first thing I said very clearly was "I'm hearing impaired. I can't understand you."

[Totem Polar]

Not LE, but I like Craig's take on the issue. Go figure.

[Cypher]

Something that I never thought about it until after I watched that video is it I have a bad right knee and I honestly don't know if I could get on my knees with no hands.

Like Craig Douglas said, I think I'd have to freeze. If I couldn't physically comply with what the cop was telling me to do I think I'd have to freeze and not do anything until I either had a chance to explain myself or they knocked me on my ass.

ETA I just got out of my car and tried it and I could not get on my knees with my hand still on my head. Like he said in the video oh, I'm really glad I found that out in an empty parking lot all by myself instead of with a cop pointing a gun at me and screaming.

That's also one of the reasons that I make absolutely certain to wear my safety vest at work.

[Mike C]

Wow, excellent video, can't wait to learn some more from SN this go round on EDP. January can't get here fast enough.

[STI]

I’m REALLY not a fan of the idea of staying still and “waiting out” the tantrum of a person who has their shaky trigger finger inside the trigger guard. In my opinion (Holiday Inn and all, I’m not LE) there are folks who are going to take no response as non-compliance, whether the commands are able to be complied to or not.

Dunno if it makes me jaded or not, but I basically figure that if I am near a crime scene with a weapon in my hand and LE present, burden is on me to NOT GET SHOT and all my decisions should be calculated as such. Default condition is that I am to get shot. Hearing something similar-ish from Craig makes me feel slightly less crazy.

[WobblyPossum]

I’m REALLY not a fan of the idea of staying still and “waiting out” the tantrum of a person who has their shaky trigger finger inside the trigger guard. In my opinion (Holiday Inn and all, I’m not LE) there are folks who are going to take no response as non-compliance, whether the commands are able to be complied to or not.

Dunno if it makes me jaded or not, but I basically figure that if I am near a crime scene with a weapon in my hand and LE present, burden is on me to NOT GET SHOT and all my decisions should be calculated as such. Default condition is that I am to get shot. Hearing something similar-ish from Craig makes me feel slightly less crazy.

I want to be clear in case my initial post was misunderstood. I’m not saying I think it’s a good idea to stand still with a gun in your hand and ignore commands. I’m saying it might be a good idea to stand perfectly still with your hands in view after dropping the gun as instructed in the face of conflicting subsequent commands. While there are no guarantees in life, you hearing some variation of “drop the gun” when the police arrive on scene and see you with gun in hand is getting pretty close to guaranteed. When you hear “drop the gun” you should release your grasp on the gun and allow it to fall from your hands. Don’t make any sudden movements while doing that.

When you’re standing perfectly still with your empty hands in view, your likelihood of getting shot drops a great deal. You might still get tased, struck with a baton or taken down should an officer go hands on but that beats getting shot. You’re entirely right that staying perfectly still when told to do something else is, by definition, non-compliance. My point is that, as long as your hands are empty and visible, the response to that non-compliance will likely not be a bullet.

Attempting to follow commands may also get you shot if the commands you’re getting from multiple officers are conflicting. If one officer tells you to get on the floor and another tells you to turn around and place your hands behind your back, you might get shot by one officer while trying to comply with the commands of the other officer. I think staying perfectly still instead is a better option but everything is situationally dependent.

[STI]

I want to be clear in case my initial post was misunderstood. ... I think staying perfectly still instead is a better option but everything is situationally dependent.

Agreed on all your counts, wasn’t speaking to you specifically

[wsr]

I repo’d for 17 Years...cars in Detroit, flint, pontiac etc and construction equipment all over the country but mainly Mi so I spent inordinate amounts of time in either the ghetto on sneaking around construction sites/yards....I’ve heen held at gun point by police hundreds of times

If it’s a lone officer or multiple I’ll follow his directions to a point
I won’t get on my knees, I have several issues that make it very possible that I will have some jerky movements or have to drop my hands for balance

Depending on the situation o may be OCing...o will NOT take my gun out of the holster and drop/lay it on the ground
Believe it or not that was a quite common order

If concealed and there are multiple officers I will not tell them I am armed until I am cuffed or they have hands on me