Doubts about 9mm

[HCM]

Look up Tim Gramins. He was involved in a shooting with a bank robber and scored 17 hits on a perp with 230gr gold dots, several of them fatal, but the fight wasn't over until the CNS hit. At the time of his shooting he was a SWAT sniper, trained a ton, and carried a G21. He scored something like 50% of the shots he fired but he went through almost his entire duty loadout.

Would 9mm have worked better for him then?

Yeah, probably. The shot was ended by a CNS hit and more bullets is more time in the fight. You'll probably be OK with 9mm for most situations.

But then there are guys who say they have never seen more than a few shots being fired for dudes running 230gr HST+P so anecdotes can be twisted to suit any preconceived notion.

I'd stick with the data and trust in your skill over whether you're carrying the latest greatest JHP

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Tim Grammins now carries a 9mm.

Fighting is about more than terminal ballistics. In a fight, bullets are opportunities.

[AKDoug]

Tim Grammins now carries a 9mm.

Fighting is about more than terminal ballistics. In a fight, bullets are opportunities.

It's funny, I was reading this thread and your post was exactly what I was going to post.

Every time I strap on a lower capacity pistol I keep hearing "bullets are opportunities" in a calm southern drawl.. just like Frank Proctor said in the class I took with him. I balance capacity with pistol size and end up in G19 land with two G17 mags for reloads.

Somebody else mentioned Alaskan LEO carrying .40's and .45's.. I don't know what Anchorage carries, but the Alaska State Troopers still roll with Glocks in .40S&W. National Park Service also runs .40's for their LEO's. I'm not sure if it's a perceived advantage over 9's or just happenstance.

[El Cid]

Tim Grammins now carries a 9mm.

Fighting is about more than terminal ballistics. In a fight, bullets are opportunities.

Yep. I like how Defoor explains it with "timers and switches." If you can't hit a switch (CNS), then you need to speed up the timer which of course means you need more bullets.

[GlorifiedMailman]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

[TGS]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

It's insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

If it gives you the warm and fuzzy, by all means carry a .45, just like some people get a warm and fuzzy from 127gr +p+ or .357 SIG.

Don't agonize over it though. Pick something from @DocGKRs list and drive on.

[spinmove_]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

If the projectile was traveling at rifle speeds then the temporary wound cavity would matter more. Since it’s not, it’s essentially just poking a hole through a human. Given that you're debating the differences between a 0.455” projectile vs a 0.356” projectile, I mean, yes there’s factually a difference, but the margin is so slim it’s moot.

Again, we’re just talking pistol calibers here. They, by far, are significantly underpowered compared to a rifle or shotgun load. They’re just way more convenient for John Q. Public to carry every day.

[WobblyPossum]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

Advances in ammunition technology over the last 20 years have greatly decreased the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP. The FBI has entirely switched to 9mm again. One of the main reasons was that the major service calibers all did pretty much the same thing, so why carry fewer rounds that recoiled more?

[Joe in PNG]

Some facts are counter-intuitive.

It may be intuitive to go home after a long day at a desk and just relax, because one feels tired. But that's not actually healthy, and it's better to get in some exercise.

Likewise, it is intuitive that a bigger bullet must make a bigger hole and do more damage, but a lot of testing and real world experience has shown that is not the case.

[Duke]

I dont doubt 9mm

But I do doubt that this Thread’s outcome will be better for ones long term self defense plan than doing a max set of burpees and pull ups instead.

[URIT]

If I were the OP with OCD playing the "What If?" game with myself, I'd still be wondering after reading this thread. The handgun and caliber of ammo play a minor role to the operator.