Doubts about 9mm

[revchuck38]

@Cypher - St. Barbara would be proud.

[Lost River]

Screw it



Go big or go home

HA! Awesome!

[Lost River]

I may know a fellow Idahoan and Brother .44 Associate who thinks the N Frame can be a good thing at times!







But that may be for another thread, another time.


Back to our regularly scheduled DERP.

[Velo Dog]

My personal experience is that for large animals, a large heavy bullet gives you better penetration against heavy bone and tissue. Especially when your shots may be at a less than ideal angle.

I tend to agree with that statement, however 9mm can be surprisingly penetrative with certain bullets.

Inches of penetration into FBI standard 10% ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim https://www.lehighdefense.com/

44 Remington Magnum 220gr Xtreme Penetrator @ 1,200 FPS...32.0 inches
45 Colt 250gr 30,000 PSI High Pressure Load @1,100 FPS........32.0 inches
9mm Luger 115gr @ 1,150 FPS............................................30+ inches
45 Colt 250gr @ 850 FPS............................................... ....28.0 inches
44 Special 220gr @750 FPS............................................... .27.5 inches
45 ACP +P 200gr @950 FPS............................................... .27.0 inches
357 Mag 140gr @ 1,250 FPS from 4" barrel............................27.0 inches
357 SIG 115gr @ 1,325 FPS............................................... 27.0 inches
10mm Auto 140gr @ 1,200 FPS...........................................26.0 inches
40 S&W 140gr @ 1,050 FPS............................................... .21.5 inches
38 Special +P 140gr @ 850 FPS...........................................17.0 inches
380 Auto 90gr Xtreme Penetrator @ 950 FPS.........................17.0 inches

5pins testing showed little difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 with hard cast bullets.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Ballistics-Gel
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Ballistics-Gel

Finally, back in 1992 a Florida police officer used a 9mm pistol to stop a rampaging circus elephant.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/03/u...n-rampage.html

[BehindBlueI's]

I tend to agree with that statement, however 9mm can be surprisingly penetrative with certain bullets.

Inches of penetration into FBI standard 10% ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim https://www.lehighdefense.com/

I think the "heavy bone" part was more the issue and the 4LD isn't going to expose those differences. Probably how resistant to skull deflection as well, depending on the critter. I've seen multiple instances of duty cartridges riding a pit bull's skull, for example. Bears and the like are well outside my area of expertise, but I would suppose it's similar.

[Velo Dog]

I think the "heavy bone" part was more the issue and the 4LD isn't going to expose those differences.

Correct. DocGKR has said something like "Bullets that do well against bone generally fare well against automobile windshield intermediate barrier."

9mm+P 124gr(1180fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr(995)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr(1070fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45acp 230gr(905fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”

With the proper bullet construction the 9mm often compares favorably with other duty cartridges in penetration. If more penetration is needed then a large hunting revolver or long gun may be required.

[Totem Polar]

The man in the passenger car died as I spoke to him. An autopsy later revealed a detached aorta. After that I went to putting down the couple of remaining cattle that were loose with my .45. That caused some huge problems and internal fighting as I had chain of command both for and against my decision to disobey orders.. anyways..

That is a hell of a thing.

Time spent worrying about "should I be carrying a .40/.45" etc, or this round or that would be much better spent actually determining where you weak spots are in your skill sets, and improving those.

Or do some pushups.

Or both.

FWIW, the only thing I was able to do just for myself today was in/out for one dot torture with a G45 (ex-dentist providence; the other one) and pushups.

May not be much these days, but it’s something.

[Lost River]

That is a hell of a thing.

It is not the ones we save. It is days like that, having your hands tied by shitty bosses who's number #1 concern is their own career, and not the welfare of the public, and feeling helpless to do anything about it when you see the catastrophe about to happen, then happen, and know it was all preventable.

[JRB]

...

....However, I've said it to my friends, and I'm calling it now, one or two future high profile gunfights with the 9mm which fail to immediately incapacitate felons will lead to questions and maybe even backtracking. The .40 is not dead. Sometimes, history does repeat itself. Don't be surprised if in 5 years that the .40 will again be in American police holsters.

I think you're missing a fundamental change in LE equipment - almost every possible 'high profile' situation will have shotguns or rifles involved now, so those sorts of problems won't be solved with handguns alone anymore.

[JRB]

It is not the ones we save. It is days like that, having your hands tied by shitty bosses who's number #1 concern is their own career, and not the welfare of the public, and feeling helpless to do anything about it when you see the catastrophe about to happen, then happen, and know it was all preventable.

Sir, as always you bring a hell of a lot to any discussion, including some outstanding photos.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and impressions in threads like this. We're all better off for it.