Page 2 of 27 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 264

Thread: Doubts about 9mm

  1. #11
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Gotham Adjacent
    I still carry a .45 fairly frequently. Not because I think it is more effective than a 9mm, but because I like it. It gives me some warm and fuzzy inside, that a “Forty-fives don’t shrink.” Besides Federal HST and/or Speer Gold Dot and/or Winchester Ranger Bonded come in all major calibers worth giving a damn about.
    4
     

  2. #12
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    ABQ, NM
    The 12 step P-F sidearm selection cycle:

    Step 1 - Buy/Own a pistol
    Step 2 - Take it to the range, shoot it until you trust it and feel confident; CHL permit+McHolster.
    Step 3 - blahblahblahblahblahblah
    Step 4 - Get a Glock 19/Beretta 92 and take a class; realize shot timer phone apps are garbage; McHolsters suck
    Step 5 - Realize you shoot a Beretta 92/Glock/(Other Gun) better during the class
    Step 6 - Buy six flavors of Beretta/Glock/(Other Gun) and holsters
    Step 7 - 1911...oooo shiny
    Step 8 - Take another class; how did I end up with so many holsters; dot torture
    Step 9 - Distracted diversion to HK/CZ/Sig/M&P/[Other Gun]; sell off guns and holsters to buy more guns and holsters
    Step 10 - REVOLVERS, BY GOD!
    Step 11 - Carry Optics/Red Dots/All the Widgets and Gizmos
    Step 12 - Return to Step 1.

    This is Step 3 thinking. Spend as little time on Step 3 as possible. Enjoy all the other steps.
    47
     

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post

    If there is no noticeable effectiveness difference between 9mm and .45 shot-for-shot, that would make 9mm the obvious choice for all the normal reasons.
    "There is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges"

    -Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio

    (I believe I was first made aware of the quote above by Chuck Haggard)
    8
     

  4. #14

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Do what makes you happy. If you want to ignore science and evidence that’s your right. The 1986 Miami shootout you make veiled reference to was not a failure of the 9mm. It was a failure to get long guns into the fight.
    There were many failures, an autopsy results indicated that had the 115 STHP penetrated further, the fight might have ended sooner. A .40 or .45 likely would have made a difference..., but then again same could be said about the 124 +P Gold Dot or similar.

    ETA: ignore the smiley, not sure how that got there.
    Last edited by Bucky; 11-19-2019 at 05:52 AM.
    0
     

  5. #15
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Jefferson
    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    Who’s to say that there won’t be another tragic event of brave LEOs getting killed while using 9mm pistols that fail to end the threat, and precipitate a move back to larger calibers like .40 and .45 (or some new caliber entirely)? That’s not to say that I think such a tragedy would actually be the fault of 9mm; more than likely it would be the fault of something else entirely or the inadequacies of service pistol calibers in general.
    There is no predicting on what administrators will blame the failures of future events. But the FBI Miami Shootout was not a failure of 9mm. It was a primarily failure of planning/preparation/tactics: The agents, hoping to encounter deadly bank robbers known to use a mini 14 & shotgun, had largely equipped themselves with .38 revolvers. Other agents also had 2 .357s, 3 9mm, & two shotguns. None of the involved agents had smgs, rifles or rifle-rated body armor.

    Way, way, way down the list of failures was the Winchester silvertip for not penetrating that extra 1.5 inches. Other 9mm ammo, including regular ball, would have done so. Still, that silvertip wound was ultimately fatal - it just didn't stop a very motivated assailant immediately.

    Finally, there is no magic bullet. I was just looking over an autopsy from a controversial 2015 police shooting where a psychotic methhead wearing a thick jacket, hoodie, and thermal undershirt was hit over 20 times by .40 Winchester Ranger T at <5 yards. None of the bullets performed that well - more than half failed to fully expand and those that did expand shed jackets & fragments. Had his CNS not been hit, the perp probably would have kept on fighting until blood loss caught up with him.
    8
     

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Behind the Photonic Curtain
    A few years ago a nearby city PD changed from .40 Glocks to .45 Glocks. They might have had two OIS in the last fifteen years and prevailed in both, so it wasn't a caliber/ammo problem. Somebody liked .45, Glock gave them a deal, and now 200+ officers get to carry .45s.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
    3
     

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    I believe that the .45 still has adherents in rural and colder climates (eg, Anchorage, or my own region’s Sheriff —not to be confused with the city PD’s current 9mms), but for mainstream LE? Probably settled, until someone invents better tech. JMO.

    Why is .45 still better for those in rural or colder climates; is it because of animals, or penetration through thick winter clothing?
    0
     

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    The 12 step P-F sidearm selection cycle:

    Step 1 - Buy/Own a pistol
    Step 2 - Take it to the range, shoot it until you trust it and feel confident; CHL permit+McHolster.
    Step 3 - blahblahblahblahblahblah
    Step 4 - Get a Glock 19/Beretta 92 and take a class; realize shot timer phone apps are garbage; McHolsters suck
    Step 5 - Realize you shoot a Beretta 92/Glock/(Other Gun) better during the class
    Step 6 - Buy six flavors of Beretta/Glock/(Other Gun) and holsters
    Step 7 - 1911...oooo shiny
    Step 8 - Take another class; how did I end up with so many holsters; dot torture
    Step 9 - Distracted diversion to HK/CZ/Sig/M&P/[Other Gun]; sell off guns and holsters to buy more guns and holsters
    Step 10 - REVOLVERS, BY GOD!
    Step 11 - Carry Optics/Red Dots/All the Widgets and Gizmos
    Step 12 - Return to Step 1.

    This is Step 3 thinking. Spend as little time on Step 3 as possible. Enjoy all the other steps.
    This is frighteningly accurate. I suppose this is my 3rd time to repeat the process and I'm on step 3. I'd like to get past it as soon as possible after putting some doubts to rest.
    1
     

  9. #19
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Central Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by Navin Johnson View Post
    Really?
    Its important to remember a .45 acp can go right through an engine block. Just throwing one with you hand at a car will blow the door right off.
    7
     

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    1) Hole size =/= rate of bleed. The body can swell and cut off blood flow. It's designed to fight wounded but that capacity can obviously be overcome. Different areas of the body have different amounts of pressure behind them and different sizes of blood vessels and different tissue types that respond differently to injury. The body isn't a bucket where a bigger hole leaks faster. The body is more of a hydraulic system wrapped in sponge that can swell or contract.

    2) Bullet selection matters. Most shootings involve shitty ammunition because most shootings are criminal on criminal and criminals *tend* to run shitty ammunition. If I want to know how WWB ball does, I'll consult my files.

    3) Who lives and who dies is a function of two things. Shot placement and time lapse to medical treatment. Some would argue for three with 'will to live' being the third, and that's probably valid for many injuries as well.

    4) My own case files contain hundreds of people shot. I have access to thousands of people shot. My (former) office got roughly 600 people shot a year. I rapidly learned that tracking caliber for purposes other than linking cases was useless. The variables of ammunition used, shot placement, distance to emergency services, etc. vastly overwhelmed any trend for calibers. It also doesn't tell you who's fighting determined attackers and who's engaged in assassination style shootings. Literally nobody carries a .32 for duty use here, but it's used in plenty of dope-rip shootings/assassinations. If you have 50 shootings with a .32 and 50 shootings with the .40, the most common duty round for most of the time I was a detective, is that a valid comparison? Does shooting someone then having immediate medical aid compare to shooting someone and leaving them in a car unreported match up or does that change the data?

    No, a more valid comparison is when entire departments switch. Then you should have the variables controlled. Quality ammunition, same training level so (in theory) same level of good shot placement, same geographic area being policed so same access to medical care, etc. Do you see any statistically relevant change in how many officers win gun fights? The answer is...no, you don't. Or at least we haven't locally and nearly everyone has switched to 9mm except the state police.

    Believe whatever you like. I used to be an arch-bishop in the Holy Church of the .45, carried a 1911 then a Sig P220, and still own more copies of the P220 then any other specific model. However after seeing countless people shot, dead or alive, and a modicum of research I've gotten over it. I will, and have, confront determined and deadly enemies with any of the common duty calibers because they all work and they all work in a measure so equal that the differences aren't even quite angels on pinheads.

    And it might be, but not with the tech we have now. The current .380 cartridges can't "do it all": penetrate, expand, and be barrier blind. It's the smallest commonly used cartridge that can consistently break adult bones, though.
    5
     

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •