Doubts about 9mm

[Cypher]

...which is exactly where this thread belongs

I'm glad for threads like this. I sometimes doubt the effectiveness of 9mm, then I come to this thread and I read actual data and I understand that my feelings are lying.

[Baldanders]

Has anybody brought up Hitler or Kevin Bacon yet?

.32 ACP has 100% one-shot stops on Hitlers.

[Guerrero]

.32 ACP has 100% one-shot stops on Hitlers.

Nein: Argentina

[Cypher]

Nein: Argentina

[Baldanders]

Nein: Argentina

If I went down to Argentina, and shot CyberHitler with a .44 AutoMag--- a gun so powerful it uses cut-down .308 Winchester brass necked up to ,44 caliber--the temporal warp triple whoop-ass would alter the timeline, resulting in libertarian utopia.

But most of us would be erased from the timeline.

Dilemmas.

[Joe in PNG]

If I went down to Argentina, and shot CyberHitler with a .44 AutoMag--- a gun so powerful it uses cut-down .308 Winchester brass necked up to ,44 caliber--the temporal warp triple whoop-ass would alter the timeline, resulting in libertarian utopia.

But most of us would be erased from the timeline.

Dilemmas.

Maybe a 10mm would have fewer temporal effects?

[Borderland]

From serving in the military and LE for well over 20 years. So yes, friends and coworkers as well as seeing it myself in some cases. I’ve also trained with several folks who have those backgrounds. Take a class with McNamara, Pannone, Defoor, etc and ask them what their former units carry.

You still haven’t told us where you get your information. When you get presented facts that don’t agree with your statements you just say things like “if you say so.” Prove us all wrong. I beg you.

Not trying to prove anything. What facts? The military chose a 9mm based on a very low bid.

Former Units? What does that mean? What they were issued? I think we all know what that was. 9mm has been a standard in the military since 85. All one really has to do if they want to know what the military trains with is look at the brass salvage auctions from the bases that do the training like JBLM. It's all been 9mm for a very long time. No need to ask an ex operator. Pretty hard to run a 45 when all they issue is 9mm ammo.

LE just recently switched from 40 to 9mm. Lots of surplus 40's out there from LE agencies. I've seen 55 gal drums full of 40 brass from a LE training facility when I worked for a gov't agency. 40 to 9 was another budget driven decision.

[HCM]

Not trying to prove anything. What facts? The military chose a 9mm based on a very low bid.

Former Units? What does that mean? What they were issued? I think we all know what that was. 9mm has been a standard in the military since 85. All one really has to do if they want to know what the military trains with is look at the brass salvage auctions from the bases that do the training like JBLM. It's all been 9mm for a very long time. No need to ask an ex operator. Pretty hard to run a 45 when all they issue is 9mm ammo.

LE just recently switched from 40 to 9mm. Lots of surplus 40's out there from LE agencies. I've seen 55 gal drums full of 40 brass from a LE training facility when I worked for a gov't agency. 40 to 9 was another budget driven decision.

40 to 9 is not a budget driven decision. The SIG M17/18 was chosen based on a low bid. 9mm has been the stands service round since 1986. I notice you like twisting half truths to lend credence to your .false statements

As noted up thread PF is supposed to be source of accurate information - you know, that whole “students and teachers of the pistol” thing ?

I don’t know whether you are trolling (which I suspect) or really that obtuse but either way you are posting information here as fact which has no basis in reality and which you are apparently just pulling out of your ass. You are shitting in the information stream and a detriment to the signal to noise ratio here.

[jetfire]

The 12 step P-F sidearm selection cycle:

Step 1 - Buy/Own a pistol
Step 2 - Take it to the range, shoot it until you trust it and feel confident; CHL permit+McHolster.
Step 3 - blahblahblahblahblahblah
Step 4 - Get a Glock 19/Beretta 92 and take a class; realize shot timer phone apps are garbage; McHolsters suck
Step 5 - Realize you shoot a Beretta 92/Glock/(Other Gun) better during the class
Step 6 - Buy six flavors of Beretta/Glock/(Other Gun) and holsters
Step 7 - 1911...oooo shiny
Step 8 - Take another class; how did I end up with so many holsters; dot torture
Step 9 - Distracted diversion to HK/CZ/Sig/M&P/[Other Gun]; sell off guns and holsters to buy more guns and holsters
Step 10 - REVOLVERS, BY GOD!
Step 11 - Carry Optics/Red Dots/All the Widgets and Gizmos
Step 12 - Return to Step 1.

This is Step 3 thinking. Spend as little time on Step 3 as possible. Enjoy all the other steps.

Unsurprisingly I am stopped happily at Step 10

[Unobtanium]

I’ve been pouring over this subject for years now (particularly DocGKR’s work), but keep coming back to the same conundrum at one point or another. It’s obvious that 9mm has taken the world by storm once more in LE, military, and self-defense use. However, looking back over the past several decades, the pendulum seems to swing back and forth between larger/heavier calibers like the .40, .45, and 10mm (for a brief time), and 9mm. There was a time when 9mm was thought to be king, but then it was determined not to be enough and a larger caliber was needed.

Who’s to say that there won’t be another tragic event of brave LEOs getting killed while using 9mm pistols that fail to end the threat, and precipitate a move back to larger calibers like .40 and .45 (or some new caliber entirely)? That’s not to say that I think such a tragedy would actually be the fault of 9mm; more than likely it would be the fault of something else entirely or the inadequacies of service pistol calibers in general. But that wouldn’t necessarily stop a large exodus from 9mm to a larger caliber, as has happened before.

As well, to this day it seems like larger calibers such as .40 are preferred by LE for dispatching injured animals, such as deer. If 9mm is less effective at putting down injured deer, how can it be as effective as the larger calibers to take down a 200+ pound determined human attacker?

This is coming from someone who has been carrying a 9mm Glock 19 for years and shoots in competition, but every once in a while I have my doubts about 9mm having negligible differences in effectiveness compared to .40 or .45.

I realize that the 9mm loads of today are scores more effective than 9mm loads of yesteryear, but it seems that only in the past decade has 9mm started to have loads determined to be excellent. Is it really, truly proven to be close enough in incapacitation potential to .40 or .45 to make no difference in regards to ending a posed threat quickly and effectively?

I don’t mean to start a caliber debate or focus on the wrong things, but it’s something that’s been gnawing at me for a while. It’s really the main reason I haven’t sold off my .45’s. Meanwhile I will continue my 9mm shooting schedule as normal, I will not let this compromise my effectiveness.

Thanks to all who help a OCD soul.

I am OCD to the max, so I can relate...I also did not read all 15 pages...

The 9mm has sufficient energy with current projectile design to fully penetrate to and or through the CNS and large blood bearing organs of an extremely high percentage of the population even from suboptimal angles.

This is it. This is all you need to know and accept. That. That simple thing.

Now you need to go out and train. Because now you have to be able to apply this fact to a hostile situation rapidly a d reliably.

Also keep in mind that if we had a pie chart of tissue destruction, the .30-06 would be so far removed from the 9.., .357, .40,. 45, etc. that the pie chart would look stupid and be difficult to present. Now...we all know plenty of deer that have taken a full house expanding .30 rifle round through both lungs and the heart, and kept on trucking for quite a bit further than Tueller would have ever been okay with. So keep that in mind, and stop stressing and just keep on training to make good hits with the puny option you have available (handgun), because your organic performance will far overshadow its mechanical differences between calibers regarding the outcome.