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Thread: Doubts about 9mm

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    So then what reason is there (besides the "legacy" reasons of "department/agency still gives free .40/.45 ammo supply") to pick .40 or .45?

    At this point it seems like there is no logical reason to choose any caliber other than 9mm if you're not in a communist state.

    If my only concern was people, I would rock a 9mm and never look back.

    That said, people are not my only concern. They are not the only concern of a great many Law Officers throughout the country once you get away from the urban areas.



    Typical medium to small animals, a 9mm works fine, and that includes thin skinned critters like cats (I am talking about mountain lions and bobcats not domestic kitties) and coyotes.

    When you get into larger animals is where things get different.

    This is where people have entrenched thinking. When they think "large animal defense" they automatically think "Bears". The fact is that the odds of going up against a bear are rather low as a lawman, or as a citizen.

    You are FAR more likely to be injured or killed by a horse or cow than a bear by a substantial margin. I have put down more injured cattle than I can recall.

    There are not many places in this country that do not have cattle and horses.

    Cattle trucks overturn on the interstate/highway.
    Trucks hauling both cattle and horse trailers are involved in vehicle accidents every single day on county roads.
    Animals get frightened during storms and run through barbed wire fences, injuring themselves.
    They constantly wander onto roadways, getting struck by vehicles, becoming injured and still mobile.
    Huge parts of the west have land that is legally called "Open Range" where livestock have the right of way.
    Sometimes they just get sick,
    etc, etc.

    The only time I ever actually used my straight stick on a live object was not on a person. It was on an injured cow from an overturned cattle truck. That cow had flipped one guy off his 4 wheeler, and had two people pretty much corralled in the back of their pickup bed, and had dented the side of the truck a couple times as the guys were waving the cow away from the interstate. I was running away from and smacking that mad SOB hard as I could (imagine a rodeo clown keeping in tight behind the shoulder of a bull trying to gore him and you get the picture). My ASP looked like a banana.

    The supervisor (who was not there) had initially refused to let me shoot the animals, even though we had an interstate with 2 lane traffic (each direction) running full speed .

    Eventually a crash happened with one of the cows that I could not prevent due to this order. I remember watching it like it happened in slow motion and there was not a thing I could do to prevent it. Everyone was doing their best to round up the few cattle that were not aggressive, and one slipped through and trotted up onto the hardball.

    The man in the passenger car died as I spoke to him. An autopsy later revealed a detached aorta. After that I went to putting down the couple of remaining cattle that were loose with my .45. That caused some huge problems and internal fighting as I had chain of command both for and against my decision to disobey orders.. anyways..

    My personal experience is that for large animals, a large heavy bullet gives you better penetration against heavy bone and tissue. Especially when your shots may be at a less than ideal angle.

    When your average to large Angus bull weighs in at about 1 ton and a heifer at 1/2 that roughly, and you need to put one down DRT, I would rather have a larger caliber handgun than a smaller one.


    You can kill the stupid things with a .22 to the ear canal, but there is a big difference between an animal in a loading chute, and a hell bent one on the loose in a town full of people who don't know any better than to get the hell away from it.

    Just my experience.
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  2. #182
    If your only concern is people, grab some 124 grain Gold Dot +P (or equivalent) load up and rock on.
    As others have suggested.

    Time spent worrying about "should I be carrying a .40/.45" etc, or this round or that would be much better spent actually determining where you weak spots are in your skill sets, and improving those.

    Or do some pushups.

    Or both.
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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by STI View Post
    Here’s how history will repeat itself in your hypothetical - the LE carrying 9, that make these shots that you’re going to use to justify 40 with - they’ll be average to worse marksmen and the shot placement will be bad, too late to stop the target, or both.

    And a sober, uninvested party doing an AAR would assign responsibility to the failure with the nut behind the trigger and not the ammunition or handgun. That’s the history that repeats, historically.

    If you wanna carry forty, get on with your dirty self, you don’t need any pats on the back around here (and it might be hard to find them anyway)

    Paragraph 1, agree.

    Paragraph 2, disagree somewhat. FBI Miami was and is the continued case study. The ammo and caliber almost always gets the blame first and has for decades. This is why the caliber wars never die. The only way the "nut behind the trigger" is assigned responsibility is if his actions were so egregious that there was no way to put his actions on the back-burner behind ammo performance. Newhall was and is the continued case study.

    Paragraph 3, I have no desire to carry a .40. I did for 20 years every night. I'm good, thanks. As for pats on the back, I'm not looking for them from you or anyone else on this forum. I'm simply expressing my viewpoint, which is the point of forums, but if I turn out to be right, the first pat can come from you. If I'm wrong, the first "I was wrong" will come from me.

    Aside from that, I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation with like-minded individuals.
    Last edited by jbourneidentity; 11-24-2019 at 04:02 PM.
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    I don’t mean to start a caliber debate or focus on the wrong things
    You're focusing on the wrong things
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 11-24-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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  5. #185
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbourneidentity View Post
    Paragraph 1, agree.

    Paragraph 2, disagree somewhat. FBI Miami was and is the continued case study. The ammo and caliber almost always gets the blame first and has for decades.
    I can't say I agree with that. I distinctly remember multiple key points learned from Miami passed on to me as a rookie 20 years later. Don't put your only duty gun under your leg (note the gun-under-the-leg for a bad guy at your window was still taught, but you used your BUG), availability of long guns, confronting armored suspects and alternate aiming points, using cover (even if a curb or parking lot hump is all you can get), wounded officer evac drills, etc. that all stemmed from dissection of Miami.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
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  6. #186
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    BBI is correct.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
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  7. #187
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    "My personal experience is that for large animals, a large heavy bullet gives you better penetration against heavy bone and tissue. Especially when your shots may be at a less than ideal angle. When your average to large Angus bull weighs in at about 1 ton and a heifer at 1/2 that roughly, and you need to put one down DRT, I would rather have a larger caliber handgun than a smaller one."
    Yup and a good deep penetrating shotgun slug works even better....
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    BBI is correct.
    As usual. (Don't be gettin' the big head now, BBI. )
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  9. #189
    Yep,

    I would rather have an N-Frame in my hands than a Glock at times, but life is what it is..






    For the record, I was only counting coup, no Bison were harmed in the making of these pics.

    Nor were any speed goats, though Antelope are much harder to put the sneak on up to handgunning range.

    My knees and elbows were in fact harmed in the making of this shot..


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  10. #190
    Banned
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    Rocky Mountains
    Screw it



    Go big or go home
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