Doubts about 9mm

[Default.mp3]

Any common duty caliber bullet that disrupts the right tissues/structures will work equally, biology dictates that. A .45 through the brain doesn't work any better or any worse than a 9mm through the brain or a .357 magnum through the brain, etc. A disrupted spinal cord, a severed artery, etc. All samey-same.

Sure, that's where the "good enough" comes along. A bigger bullet will give you more leeway, a little more chance to sever that artery or spinal cord; there's also the argument of more KE gives you a bit more barrier penetration. Of course, as previously noted, that size difference is pretty minuscule, and quality bonded ammo of the three main calibers don't have that much difference when it comes to barrier performance (yeah yeah, there's always the rare scenario where the 9mm won't have enough KE after a barrier to penetrate a skull or something while a .40 S&W can), so... yeah.

[hiro]

As HopetonBrown said: @GlorifiedMailman and @BBMW, would you two care to share your average 25y B8 score or FAST test, because I'm curious if you put equal effort and energy into shooting as you do in caliber debates.

[YVK]

FMJ diameter:
9mm = 9mm
.40 = 10mm
.45 = 11.4mm

Expanded JHP diameter:
9mm ~= 15mm
.40 ~= 17mm
.45 ~= 19mm

But the typical artery is ~3mm wide with the largest being 10-25mm. Does a 19mm bullet really do all that much more damage to a 10mm artery than a 15mm bullet?

I don't know a whole lot about bullets but I know a little about arteries. Yes, indeed we have documented well enough statistically that size of a hole in artery matters. Hemorrhagic complications from femoral artery (most fall into 6-10 mm diameter) cannulations have decreased with the use of smaller size arterial sheaths. We're talking about reducing the hole size just by 0.66-1.0 mm and in conditions when we're actively watching the site and trying to reduce the chance of bleed. So if somebody had one bullet and was going to shoot me in my groin, or armpit etc, I would've preferred to take a 9 over 45 just to decrease the odds.

The issue is not relative damage under theoretical circumstances. The issue is that small size of vital targets (by these I mean arteries) relatively to aiming target (torso, COM, whatever you call it) and small size of projectiles bring a significant amount of randomness as to whether the artery is going to get hit at all, or if it will be a partial hit, a tear, a transsection etc. Add already commented on ability of human body to sustain and survive even a major vascular trauma (we have people survive traumatic transsections of aorta or ruptured aortic aneurysms occasionally) and you get to where you cannot discern any statistical difference in outcomes. I carry 9 because I want more bullets to increase the number of attempts (hits) and hence odds of hitting a good artery, because of package form factor (weight, size, concealment) and relative shootability of 9 over 45 considering that I would only carry polymer these days. If we got a hi-cap mag ban tomorrow and weight/size weren't a consideration, I would have likely chosen a larger caliber.


Oh, and my official FAST is 5.4 or 5.6 with iron sighted P30, I don't remember exactly and I doubt Ernest wrote it down. I don't shoot B8 at 25, but I can, but then again I use dots these so it shouldn't really count.

[GlorifiedMailman]

"Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch circle at 3 yards in under 2 seconds, COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, and do a FAST Test in under 10 seconds, COLD, every time with no points down?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, taking a big step off line and hit an 8 inch circle at 5 yards, with 5 rounds, in under 4 secs., COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch plate at 10 yrds, at will, COLD, every time with no time constraints?( bang, tink, bang, tink, bang, tink etc.)

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and shoot a 5 shoot group at 5 yrds that you can cover with a credit card, COLD, every time with no time constraints?

Have you taken any formal training beyond a CCW class in the last 24 months?"

1. Yes
2. Not in under 10 seconds... yet. This is one that I'm working on.
3. It takes me longer than 4 seconds, but I'm slowly shaving that time down
4. Yes
5. Yes

I definitely have my work cut out for me.

[Galbraith]

Just out of curiosity, what 10+1 .45 do you carry on duty that you shoot better than your 9mm, and what is your 9mm?

I am only authorized to carry classic DA/SA Sigs or the P320 and P365 series. I am currently using the P320 full sized .45acp, and the P365xl 9mm off duty. I was using the regular P365 for a while, but found that I shot the XL model significantly better, so I switched to that. I do not have as many rounds downrange with the XL that I had with the regular model.

Prior to switching to the P320 .45, I had used two P320 full sized 9mms. The first was a pre "upgrade" model, and the second was an upgraded model. I shot both 9mm versions better than I shot my previous generation P220s, P226s, and P229s in meaningful, timed courses of fire. I had been a dedicated P226 9mm user for a number of years prior to that, and my default decision was to continue using 9mm in the P320 series. However, after giving the P320FS .45 a try, I became intrigued with its capabilities. In the standard FAST drill, I would get scores in the low 5s with the 9mm version, and my times in the .45 were only about .15s slower......yet my accuracy and groupings were tighter in the .45acp. Whether it be the Hateful 8, or Bill Drills this trend with the .45 version continued. At 50yrds with duty ammo using a rest, my accuracy and groupings were again tighter with the .45acp than the 9mm versions. Another interesting observation at that range was that in a crosswind the 9mm suffered wind drift to a degree that it threw shots off target and the .45(and .40S&W) were virtually unaffected. I added a second P320FS .45 to my inventory, and it exhibited similarly great performance. I also tested a coworkers P320FS in .40S&W with the large grip model, and if I were not already invested in the .45 models I would be VERY tempted to use that. It proved to be one of the more accurate, reliable, and soft shooting .40S&W pistols I have ever shot.

I have shot two versions of the P320 X5/Legion pistols, and they are exceptionally good 9mm guns which I would admit that I shoot better than my P320 .45s. They utilize a longer sight radius, a thicker and longer bull barrel, and a weighted frame. There are issues with the design right now so I'm not intrigued enough to buy them until they are changed. Plus, for the price of one Legion I can buy two P320s and double the magazines. However, if money were of less concern I would strongly consider going with the P320 9mm Legion.

[Borderland]

I tried to like 9mm. So far I've had two 9mm pistols in my entire life. Those I purchased in the last 3 years. I just sold one and replaced it with a 45. The other one I'll keep because it's a compact and conceals nicely. Lets just say I'm not a fan. If I had a duty pistol it wouldn't be a 9mm. The US military F'd up yugely when they decided to keep 9mm.

Don't try to confuse me with facts or endorsements. I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know.

If we got a hi-cap mag ban tomorrow and weight/size weren't a consideration, I would have likely chosen a larger caliber.

That should settle the debate forever.

[Doc_Glock]

FMJ diameter:
9mm = 9mm
.40 = 10mm
.45 = 11.4mm

Expanded JHP diameter:
9mm ~= 15mm
.40 ~= 17mm
.45 ~= 19mm

Flow rate through a hole is related to the fourth power of the radius, so yeah, a little more hole goes a long way when it comes to increasing bleeding.

Example: a 19mm hole has the potential to flow 2.5 times the amount of a 15mm hole. (assuming I did the math right).

And none of that matters because clinically and historically all pistol bullets above 9mm work about the same at producing incapacitation.

[the Schwartz]

I tried to like 9mm. So far I've had two 9mm pistols in my entire life. Those I purchased in the last 3 years. I just sold one and replaced it with a 45. The other one I'll keep because it's a compact and conceals nicely. Lets just say I'm not a fan. If I had a duty pistol it wouldn't be a 9mm. The US military F'd up yugely when they decided to keep 9mm.

Don't try to confuse me with facts or endorsements. I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know.

That should settle the debate forever.

*Exactly how many gun fights did you lose before concluding that you were "not a fan" of the 9mm?












*Disclaimer: While I am certain to a fault that Borderland will see this for the humor that I intended, for those with a broken or missing "funny bone", the material in this post is strictly intended as humor and nothing more than humor.

[the Schwartz]

Flow rate through a hole is related to the fourth power of the radius, so yeah, a little more hole goes a long way when it comes to increasing bleeding.

Example: a 19mm hole has the potential to flow 2.5 times the amount of a 15mm hole. (assuming I did the math right).

And none of that matters because clinically and historically all pistol bullets above 9mm work about the same at producing incapacitation.

As much as I favor equations and mathematical modeling of terminal ballistic phenomena, other factors should be considered when discussing the rate of flow of blood involving tissues in the human body:

Never seen any mathematical equation or computer model which accurately accounts for all the variations in physiology which can and do occur with projectile tissue interactions. As noted, tissue retraction, clotting, blood pressure, are just a few of the variables that dramatically alter the wounding effects.

I know that you (Doc_Glock) are well aware of this, but I provide Dr. Roberts' commentary for those who are unaware of these factors.

[Borderland]

*Exactly how many gun fights did you lose before concluding that you were "not a fan" of the 9mm?










*Disclaimer: While I am certain to a fault that Borderland will see this for the humor that I intended, for those with a broken or missing "funny bone", the material in this post is strictly intended as humor and nothing more than humor.

said Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) in a proceeding to defend the 9mm from being replaced.

That's some funny shit amigo. I think I'll read your book.