Help Me HK

[psalms144.1]

I've owned the USP (9mm and 40), USP-C (45), HK45C, HK45, VP9, P2000, and P30. All were DA/SA except the latter two, which were "V4" LEMs. My observations, based on shooting all of them quite a bit:

HKs are the "gold standard" for reliability for a reason. Accuracy tends to be good to great, despite "meh" or worse triggers. I never warmed up to the LEM, even though I ran one exclusively and trained hard with it for about 18 months. Night sight options are limited for all but the P30/HK45 dovetails.

Were I in the market for a DA/SA pistol right now, it would be the CZ P07. It's size equivalent with the P2000 with more capacity, a better trigger out of the box, and equivalent accuracy (in my experience).

If you're dead set on HKs, in 9mm I'd go for the P2000 (I strongly prefer the rear slide decocker vs the multi-use safety/decock lever of the USP), then the USPc. In 45, I slightly favor the USP-C for trigger reasons, though, again, I don't care for the safety/decock lever, personally.

[Bergeron]

I’d really like to know what a Lazy Wolf modified USP is like.

[JAD]

I presume you already have a couple of P7s. I’m not suggesting they’re practical. I think they’re bitchin’.

[OlongJohnson]

FWIW, if you don't like the standard mag release on the P2000 and USP Compact, you can switch it for the HK45c mag release. Very noticeable upgrade, great bang for the buck.

I discussed that mod in one of the other USP threads here, either the field gun or carry .45 threads. It's important to do a little material removal on the HK45c mag release if you put it in other guns to be sure it fully engages the magazine notch. If you don't do the mod to the lever and have partial engagement, you can wear the edge of the notch and get into a condition where the mags drop out at bad times. Which just might get a person kilt in da streetz. It also better aligns the paddles with the trigger guard.

Also, the mag release has pretty big paddles. I reduce them in size, so it ends up being in between the USP levers and the HK45c levers. The releases are just plastic, so it's easy to sand them down, and they're cheap if you want to start over.

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I went and looked at HK45s on GunBroker because of this thread. I think you'd be able to pick up a full size HK45 pretty darned affordably. Like these:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/834490378

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/843242537

If I wasn't already elbows deep in figuring out the trigger on USPs, it would be a compelling option. (ETA: The HK45 actually uses almost all the USP trigger bits that matter, so the only part of any LEM or Match combination that wouldn't work would be the overtravel screw on the trigger, which shouldn't be used on a serious gun anyway. At least that's my takeaway from having just done a dive on HKWebShop and Brownells.) I think the grip is the least Spiderman of all the Spiderman grips. Rob should go back and read all of Todd's discussion of that fine pistol so he can stay indecisive. Heck, I may pick up one myself. Waffles are awesome, and go great with fried chicken.

[MGW]

I love my 45c V1. I shoot it well, it’s extremely accurate, and reliable. I carried it all over the mountains in Colorado summer before last in a JM AIWB. I didn’t have anything else with sub 15 round magazines at the time, other than 1911’s, so took it as my carry gun. A friend of mine can’t understand why I keep an 8 round Glock 19 size gun around. I hate Glock 19s and love the 45c that’s why. My only complaint is it needs grip tape or it feels very slippery to me.

I have considered picking up a couple P2000’s as carry guns. Basically the same size but in 9mm with a few more bb’s. I would really like another 45c too. I had another one in LEM but my brain can’t grasp that system.

[Doc_Glock]

My experience all in 9mm:

VP9: amazing shooting gun. Brings out the best in a shooter. For the few rounds I have through it, I almost always find myself performing near the top of my capability.

P30/P30l: ditto but slightly worse performance. Prefer the V3 to LEM variants slightly.

USPc: great LEM trigger. Horrible ergonomics when set up with any other trigger. But you can have about 10 variants if you want. I absolutely hated the gun and happily got rid of it.

P2000: great tweener perfect carry size. Prefer to USPc in many ways, but it is no P30.

P30Sk: another nice small gun. The V3 has a beast of a 10.5lb DA, it is otherwise good to go.

All are amazingly reliable, very accurate and apparently durable. The VP9 will drop its striker if you hit it just right, which is an unlikely real world occurrence.

[TCB]

After 7+ years being saddled with an H&K I don’t get the fascination with them. Ours are dropping like flys, not uncommon to hear of a couple going down a week. Most of my experience is with the P2000 in .40 S&W but have owned a number (5 in both 9 & 40) of the VP series guns and as good as they were the slide release was in a stupid place and the magazine capacity was underwhelming compared to its competition. The P30 series is fairly okish but with some of the same drawbacks as the VP series. People keep telling me the USP series was the best but the couple I’ve shot were meh... The MP5s and G3’s I’ve shot...yea...awesome. But the pistols have seriously never blown my skirt up. As soon as I heard we were moving away from them I dumped every personally owned one I had and don’t miss them at all. Can’t wait until I can get rid of my issues one. Sorry to be a downer and don’t take this as an insult to your favorite brand but I just don’t get the near deification of H&Ks pistol line. I tried and have 10s of thousands of rounds on various H&K platforms, they aren’t bad...they’re just not that good. Maybe it’s just me?

[RevolverRob]

After 7+ years being saddled with an H&K I don’t get the fascination with them. Ours are dropping like flys, not uncommon to hear of a couple going down a week. Most of my experience is with the P2000 in .40 S&W but have owned a number (5 in both 9 & 40) of the VP series guns and as good as they were the slide release was in a stupid place and the magazine capacity was underwhelming compared to its competition. The P30 series is fairly okish but with some of the same drawbacks as the VP series. People keep telling me the USP series was the best but the couple I’ve shot were meh... The MP5s and G3’s I’ve shot...yea...awesome. But the pistols have seriously never blown my skirt up. As soon as I heard we were moving away from them I dumped every personally owned one I had and don’t miss them at all. Can’t wait until I can get rid of my issues one. Sorry to be a downer and don’t take this as an insult to your favorite brand but I just don’t get the near deification of H&Ks pistol line. I tried and have 10s of thousands of rounds on various H&K platforms, they aren’t bad...they’re just not that good. Maybe it’s just me?

I don’t think anyone argues that H&K makes guns that are the best shooting or most concealable on the planet. And sometimes the ergos suck (e.g, spiderman grips and the slide release on the VP/P30).

The question I have for you is: In 7+ years, did you ever worry significantly about reliability of your H&Ks?

I’ll preface by saying, I don’t care much for striker fired guns. If I want a light single-action like trigger - 1911. For me, the hammer is part of the equation. And as far as hammer fired guns go HKs, CZs, and Berettas are the best choices these days.

Also, don’t get me wrong, I also sometimes don’t get the rabid HK Fanboi love. To me the P7 and P9S are two goofy solutions in search of problems. And HK makes it excessively difficult to get parts, etc (though I see it has gotten a lot better since the VP series came out).

But I don’t care about being able to shoot sub-.2 splits. I care about the gun being utterly reliable and accurate to the point of boredom. That’s it.

[JRB]

HK pistols to own:

- Fullsize USP45
- HK45C
- Anything else

My 'Anything Else' is a USP40 I recently bought because it was just too good of a deal to pass up, and it'll convert to other calibers well. That and because of that circa 1993 photo of the Counter-Terrorist guy holding a USP40 on the cover of the old Rainbow Six PC game.

I bought my HK45C as an LEM, but it's still waiting for me at my FFL and I'll give LEM the college try when I get home. If the LEM program goes well, I'll do the match hybrid LEM in my USP's and tweak the LEM in my HK45C if needed. If my LEM experiment doesn't go well, I'm leaning toward Match/Match hybridized V3's(G-Beretta style decock only) in both.

HK mag capacities never made sense to me until I considered HK's design principles in everything else. I regret that I can't remember who said it here, but one of P-F's experts said that HK was a magazine manufacturer that happened to build guns as well. I think there's a hell of a lot of truth to that.

HK's magazines and other designs have been founded on bomb-proof, end of the world longevity, and I believe they sacrifice outright magazine capacity in exchange for service life longevity in magazines and magazine springs.
My experience reflects that reliability, having been limited to two magazines for my USP45 and two magazines for my G3 clone through the AWB era, and putting cases and cases of ammo through those weapons with only those two magazines I never once saw a magazine related issue.

@TCB's experience at an institutional level is of significant value to me - because you never really know how good a gun is until you issue tons of them to people that don't really maintain or care about those guns beyond having signed for that weapon.
Thanks for taking the time to share that experience, Sir!

[TCB]

Rob, our guns are fairy reliable and accurate for that matter. Although I have failure to loads regularly with mine (usually shooting one handed). I’ve been told it’s the X300U I have mounted but the problem didn’t develop on mine for a few thousand rounds after it was installed. I got a new one earlier this year and it’s been a bit better but they still happen unless my one handed grip (L & R) is perfect. I keep pretty good records on my duty gun and have never totaled the failures but I’d guess they are close to triple digits over the 12k or so rounds I had on it before it got deadline. I’ve found that new magazines help the issue for a bit but has never cured it. On magazines we go through them pretty frequently, lots of rusted out magazines and springs loosing their spring tension. There are literally piles of them in our FIs office. PAs have the reputation of being able to break a bowling ball so take that into account, we’re fairly rough on equipment.

They generally go bang and put rounds fairly close to where I want them to go. That’s really all I’m looking for in a duty gun so they do their job. I can shoot them fast, I can shoot them accurately but I’ve never been able to do both at the same time. To be fair the only pistol that really fills me with joy is a 1911, bit I have no desire to carry one on or off duty. Most of the current well known plastic pistols out there are fine for either of those rolls. Trying to chase the dragon will drive you crazy, find one you like and drive on. For gaming? Yea, incremental improvements can make a difference but for anything else the software is much more important than the hardware IMO. If you like H&K go for it. I actually really like the ergos on the P30/VP series guns...