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Thread: Mindsets RE: a "Broken" Gun

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I'm probably going to go back to HKs.
    After having read this, it's probably appropriate to add some more HK data:
    When I added the numbers last time, the P30 was the most frequent police pistol in Germany (followed by the Walther P99 variants). But I've already seen that the HK SFP9 is probably overtaking it, maybe it already did (since Bavaria police uses the SFP9). So the SFP9 must be very reliable, too (a pistol is very well tested before it can become a police pistol in Germany). But I don't know exactly about the little differences between the SFP9 and the VP9.
    Last edited by P30; 11-16-2019 at 05:05 AM.

  2. #22
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    Broken parts, per se, are not a concern to me. Designs that cause frequent part breakage are. As noted by BBI and others, mechanical stuff breaks. That is no big deal. But a gun design that frequently breaks parts is a concern, especially if the manufacturer does not address the issue. The HK P7 drop safety catch spring is an example of a part that was an issue, and, at one time, replacement springs were unobtanium. It led me to divest all of my P7 pistols.

    A great example of how to handle it is the Beretta 92 and the original locking block with stress risers causing cracking and, eventually, part breakage. It was an issue and Beretta responded with parts that address the issue. Yes, a locking block can still break, but there is a well-known recommended service interval and the readily available parts kit is inexpensive.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by farscott View Post
    Broken parts, per se, are not a concern to me. Designs that cause frequent part breakage are.
    The KISS design principle and lots of automated testing come to my computer scientist's mind in order to achieve reliability. And redundancy. In Glocks, the KISS principle is implemented extremely well.

    Quote Originally Posted by P30 View Post
    This and Todd's extreme test give me very much confidence in it's reliability.
    See? Many times a computer software crashed big time due to such a little error (or the software couldn't even be compiled, which is better because it exposes the error early).
    Last edited by P30; 11-16-2019 at 07:50 AM.

  4. #24
    Some relevant points here.

    One is until someone with major time and money systematically tests consumer sold handguns, “reliability” will remain a personal anecdote. Two people could buy a gun model from the same store on the same day, and get totally different “reliability” experiences. I have a Kimber 1911 that runs ,runs and runs. Doesn’t mean yours will if you go out and buy the same example from an FFL. Sample sizes of one don’t scale.

    The closest we get to a statistically valid reliability test are LE evaluations, but even here we can’t rely on them for individual purchase decisions. Manufacturers have an interest in presenting a good impression to Big LE agency when there’s a rigorous test, which in turn means the SKU sent to a LE group for evaluation might not get the same production attention as the same gun sent to Big Box Gunstore.

    Since we can’t assume a particular firearm will or will not be reliable at face value, the next best approach is to test YOUR gun. Whether it’s a Taurus or a Wilson Combat, we must “certify” our own hardware. It also means we can’t conclude Acme Model 16 is mega reliable just because our individual example runs like a top.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Whether it’s a Taurus or a Wilson Combat, we must “certify” our own hardware.
    How? If it works in a 100 or 1000 rounds test, is it certified? If it takes 10000 rounds to certify, the test is very expensive and wears the pistol.
    Last edited by P30; 11-16-2019 at 07:44 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Since we can’t assume a particular firearm will or will not be reliable at face value, the next best approach is to test YOUR gun. Whether it’s a Taurus or a Wilson Combat, we must “certify” our own hardware. It also means we can’t conclude Acme Model 16 is mega reliable just because our individual example runs like a top.
    That is true. The corollary is that we can assume that the Acme Model 16 is NOT reliable because there are many anecdotal reports from trusted sources of the same failure mode. An example that comes to mind is the corrosion issue on Kimber 1911 barrels. One rusty barrel is meaningless, but the number of reports of rusted barrels when NIB guns was received at FFLs was enough to validate the concern. The SIG P320 drop safety issue is another one where a few anecdotes were enough to prove the existence of a safety concern.
    Last edited by farscott; 11-16-2019 at 07:59 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by P30 View Post
    How? If it works in a 100 or 1000 rounds test, is it certified? If it takes 10000 rounds to certify, the test is very expensive and wears the pistol.
    That’s up to you. Since were talking about vetting one specific pistol for one specific users needs, this is totally subjective. I work at a desk and get paid to make spreadsheets, so my vetting standard is totally different from a door kicking SWAT operators requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by farscott View Post
    That is true. The corollary is that we can assume that the Acme Model 16 is NOT reliable because there are many anecdotal reports from trusted sources of the same failure mode. An example that comes to mind is the corrosion issue on Kimber 1911 barrels. One rusty barrel is meaningless, but the number of reports of rusted barrels when NIB guns was received at FFLs was enough to validate the concern. The SIG P320 drop safety issue is another one where a few anecdotes were enough to prove the existence of a safety concern.
    This ....depends. On the Kimber barrel issue,we don’t have a scope around how many guns they made , what models affected, or when they were built. All factors which can influence whether or not a particular random gun is affected. Just because 25 online connected FFLs report the same issue does not necessarily make it a national problem for all the products in question. For every FFL with an online presence there’s probably 5 who don’t know or give a hoot about the Gunternet. If a small batch of bad guns lands at a series of online savvy dealers it becomes a “serious problem” regardless of the facts. People still talk about Beretta 92 slides cracking in half 30 years after the problem was solved.

    The Sig 320 issue went well beyond online anecdotes. There are multiple legal cases which are either pending or settled on the topic, plus documentation with DoD testing and multiple law enforcement agencies all consistently discussing the same problem.

    The real concern we should all be considering is the opposite scenario- how many Sig 320 style problems lurk unknown in our firearms because of luck or savvy marketing? For all we know ,25% of 9mm Sig P226 Legions built between August and October 2019 could have a defective pin that shatters between 1k and 2K rounds. We don’t know which specific guns could be impacted, so unless enough people with social media accounts and deep pockets shoot the things we’ll never know. Until your specific gun goes tango uniform in this hypothetical example.
    Last edited by GardoneVT; 11-16-2019 at 09:31 AM.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  8. #28
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Mindsets RE: a "Broken" Gun

    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I might sell a car that broke at an inconvenient time. I think comparing a firearm to a car is a bit of a misnomer. If your car broke down dramatically, before it had 5,000 miles on it, you might be a little more leery of it, right?

    We're not talking a 20,000 round gun that wasn't cleaned. Just a gun that has been shot enough to confirm function and practice with it, followed by cleaning and proper lubrication.

    That said, yea, I'm not feeling it anymore, I don't mind maintaining my 1911s, but I'm probably going to go back to HKs.
    A long time ago I reached the same conclusion after some disappointing failures in guns that I thought I could trust. I ended up selling my Gen2&3 S&Ws and buying an HK USP/c.

    Then the cycle repeated itself when I went down the 1911 rabbit hole looking for unicorn guns to carry. More disappointing failures. Sold the 1911s and bought some Glocks. I still have the Glocks, and now view guns as life safety equipment.

    Oh, yeah I did the Sig p320 thing too, and ended up selling them.

    There are a few brands I trust (Glock, CZ, HK), and will carry after maybe a 1k rounds of break-in & testing. I have 100's of 1000's of rounds through Glocks and CZs, so I know what the wear and failure points are, and what the symptoms are. I understand how these guns work, and have plenty of spare parts. It's a nice feeling to have confidence in my equipment.

    I also have a few guns from less trusted manufacturers that fill a useful niche (e.g. Ruger LCP1.2 and LCR), and I've tried to vet them as well as I can.

    I was just at a gun shop, and some dude was all excited about his Archon B. I was thinking, "Huh. Cool gun. What a pain in the ass it would be to figure out if I could trust this thing".

    So... I completely endorse your decision to use HKs, or whichever guns you really trust.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 11-16-2019 at 11:18 AM.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #29
    Meta-Hipster RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    So... I completely endorse your decision to use HKs, or whichever guns you really trust.
    Yes, basically HKs and J-Frames for the vast majority of things from now on, 1911s for funsies and when I want to carry one.

    When I realized what was wrong with the CW9, I admit, I tossed it aside in disgust and immediately pulled out my old 642, function checked it, loaded it, and I've been carrying it.

    The thing that really got me thinking about this, besides the level of disgust associated with a gun being broken after a small number of rounds, is that very same night, after finding the gun broken, I was dozing off to sleep, when I was woken up by four or five gunshots. Somebody decided to open fire on the neighbor's house (Dallas PD Officer lives there) and shot at marked patrol unit parked on the street.

    I jumped up and grabbed a pistol while I went to check out the window and the only gun I had on hand...a 642. Better than nothing, but not what I want if a gunfight broke out for some reason (I wasn't leaving the house, but you never know, right?). And suddenly realized I didn't have what I needed/wanted for that kind of work, at all.
    "P-f: I lurked for wonderful combat pistolcraft advice, but I ponied up cash for my daily dose of Dada." - Baldanders

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I'm kind of particular about reliability of firearms.

    By that I mean, if I cannot adequately contribute a mechanical failure of a firearm to some issue related to ammunition, a magazine, or a recoil spring issue - I get a little gunshy (literally).

    Example: I grabbed the Kahr CW9 out of the pistol-safe in Texas when I flew in carry-on. I unloaded the gun and brought it up to dryfire and it had a dead trigger. After some time diagnosing I discovered a broken trigger return spring. This gun has been sitting in the safe and/or occasionally carried for the past 4-years, it has less than 2000 rounds through it.

    Once this gun is fixed, I will sell it with disclosure, why? Because I never carry a gun that breaks in this manner. I can't do it/won't do it, whatever.

    What is your mindset regarding a "broken" gun. Particularly one where there is a failure for no clear reason (like why is a trigger spring broken after <2000 rounds?). Do you fix, keep, and shoot on? Or do you fix and move on?

    Let me post an anecdote that I believe is actually relevant.

    When I moved back to south Texas (03/14), I was carrying my primary Glock IWB in a CCC Uno, and a CW9 IWB in a CCC VersaClip. I treated it just like the Glock (i.e.-like my lawnmower) because polymer/stainless, right? Well, sometime in late summer, I cleared it to show it to my brother, and when the trigger was pulled for a dry press, it did not return. A look inside revealed that, although the frame was polymer and the slide and trigger were stainless, the other internal trigger parts were blued steel, and a couple of months worth of sweat had mixed with the remaining oil to form a rusty, gummy mess right in that area. A thorough cleaning resolved the issue, and a more strict cleaning/inspection regimen has ensured that the issue has not repeated. To be fair, while in NE, I'd once had sweat migrate into the chamber of my G27 and corrode a duty round in the chamber such that it took a strong rap on a wood bench to get the slide retracted and clear the chamber.

    Point being....if you've carried it on and off in TX, and perhaps sweated all over/in it and then stuck it in a lock box for months/years at a time, perhaps that caused the spring failure, and particular attention paid to that area may relieve future concerns.
    (Formerly known as Sotex.)

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