40S&W making a comeback

[URIT]

I’m looking at the FBI study/presentation as I type this. It’s pretty well done, and mirrors the opinions of people here that know what they’re talking about. There are 5 main reasons listed for the switch, and cost is not one of them. They do mention later on that there will be cost savings on training ammunition annually, but that was hardly a driving factor.

I hope this FBI study settled your earlier concerns about the 9mm cartridge.

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers. We often hear FBI study results used to justify a position even though we know there are a lot of factors that never get discussed.

I suspect the FBI had to change back to 9mm because their agents couldn't handle the .40S&W much better than they could the 10mm. Don't forget that it was the same folks who hurriedly blessed the 10mm and subsequently claimed they invented the .40 caliber that ultimately decided that the new improved 9mm was best. I'm sure there are still some special agents that don't appear so special after range qualification even with a 9mm in hand.

Agency and department heads who want to increase their budget need to get that approved by the politicians that hold the purse strings. The budget increase is accomplished by large agencies and departments through a budget analyst (bean counter) who acts as the go-between for administrators and politicians. These two entities are often seated at opposing ends of a motivational teeter-totter and it is the analyst who clears the muddy waters.

Now, we must not forget to mention one of the agencies or departments' most valuable asset - the grant writer. There would be little hope for most real needs budget line increases without grant monies.

Here is an article that the outlines why the FBI changed... https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-...o-back-to-9mm/

Here is another article that discusses the history of the .40 caliber cartridge. I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/pr...-sw-cartridge/

[HCM]

I hope this FBI study settled your earlier concerns about the 9mm cartridge.

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers. We often hear FBI study results used to justify a position even though we know there are a lot of factors that never get discussed.

I suspect the FBI had to change back to 9mm because their agents couldn't handle the .40S&W much better than they could the 10mm. Don't forget that it was the same folks who hurriedly blessed the 10mm and subsequently claimed they invented the .40 caliber that ultimately decided that the new improved 9mm was best. I'm sure there are still some special agents that don't appear so special after range qualification even with a 9mm in hand.

Agency and department heads who want to increase their budget need to get that approved by the politicians that hold the purse strings. The budget increase is accomplished by large agencies and departments through a budget analyst (bean counter) who acts as the go-between for administrators and politicians. These two entities are often seated at opposing ends of a motivational teeter-totter and it is the analyst who clears the muddy waters.

Now, we must not forget to mention one of the agencies or departments' most valuable asset - the grant writer. There would be little hope for most real needs budget line increases without grant monies.

Here is an article that the outlines why the FBI changed... https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-...o-back-to-9mm/

Here is another article that discusses the history of the .40 caliber cartridge. I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/pr...-sw-cartridge/

I was going to ask what you base your speculation about why the FBI “had” (your words) to “change back” to 9mm but since the FBI is not resuming use of the duty load they used in the SIG P228s and they have authorized various 9mm loads in personally owned weapons and some issued G17s and 19s for at least 15 years, they are not really going “back” to anything.

I was also going to ask your FAST times, B8 scores and scores on the FBI Handgun qual course but then I saw you cite SOFREP and TTAG as legitimate sources of information and realized you aren’t to be taken seriously.

Not to mention your tone makes it clear that you think the real issue is here is that the FBI is full of Wymenz and Accountants who can’t handle “real guns.”

The FBI is a bell curve like every other LE Agency and military unit. You have 10-15% high achievers” a big group in the middle who are competent to the level of their training and required standards and 15% of struggling shooters.

How much experience do you have dealing with “institutional” shooters? Based on thta bell curve you have to deal with three groups - 1/3 that want to be there, 1/3 who just want to check the box and 1/3 who are only there because they have to be.

[URIT]

I was going to ask what you base your speculation about why the FBI “had” (your words) to change back to 9mm and what your FAST times, B8 scores and scores on the FBI Handgun qual course are.

But then I saw you cite SOFREP and TTAG as legitimate sources of information and realized you aren’t to be taken seriously.

You're a FAST reader. Ten minutes between my post and yours. I focused on content rather than the source.

I suspect the FBI "had" to change back to maintain their leadership role in the LE community and get their agents back on target.

[TC215]

I hope this FBI study settled your earlier concerns about the 9mm cartridge.

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers. We often hear FBI study results used to justify a position even though we know there are a lot of factors that never get discussed.

I suspect the FBI had to change back to 9mm because their agents couldn't handle the .40S&W much better than they could the 10mm. Don't forget that it was the same folks who hurriedly blessed the 10mm and subsequently claimed they invented the .40 caliber that ultimately decided that the new improved 9mm was best. I'm sure there are still some special agents that don't appear so special after range qualification even with a 9mm in hand.

Agency and department heads who want to increase their budget need to get that approved by the politicians that hold the purse strings. The budget increase is accomplished by large agencies and departments through a budget analyst (bean counter) who acts as the go-between for administrators and politicians. These two entities are often seated at opposing ends of a motivational teeter-totter and it is the analyst who clears the muddy waters.

Now, we must not forget to mention one of the agencies or departments' most valuable asset - the grant writer. There would be little hope for most real needs budget line increases without grant monies.

Here is an article that the outlines why the FBI changed... https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-...o-back-to-9mm/

Here is another article that discusses the history of the .40 caliber cartridge. I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/pr...-sw-cartridge/

I didn’t have any “earlier concerns” about 9mm. Not sure where you got that. I also don’t care about a SOFREP article, as I have the actual study.

I have good friend that TDY’d to the FBI FTU while testing was going on before the transition to 9mm. He was a diehard .45 guy (he was on the regional SWAT team at the time and issued a Pro 1911), and even he was excited about switching to 9mm after what he saw. There’s not some secret reason why they switched; they lay it all out, and it’s pretty straight forward.

[HCM]

You're a FAST reader. Ten minutes between my post and yours. I focused on content rather than the source.

I suspect the FBI "had" to change back to maintain their leadership role in the LE community and get their agents back on target.

And you would be wrong.

Speaking of LE ?

How much experience do you have in LE ? LE firearms ? With the FBI ? In other words what are you basing your speculation on ?

Because if you knew anything about the FBIs “leadership in the LE community” you would know it has a lot more to do with their National Academy program for state and local LE leadership than anything to do with firearms.

The fact the FBI is one of a dozen or two dozen agencies in the U.S. with the resources to do actual Scientific, repeatable, firearms and ammunition testing is the other. As already discussed in in this thread the other federal state and local agencies with those resources have reached the same conclusion as the FBI in their own testing.

Speculation and informed speculation are two different things. The fact that those in this thread with actual professional experience in LE firearms programs, investigating shootings and treating gunshot wounds are all reaching the same conclusions as the FBI is what even the FBI would have to call a clue.

Another factor is the Equipment replacement cycle. When you actually shoot and use guns they wear out like any other mechanical device. The FBI adopted Gen 3 .40 caliber Glocks in the mid 1990s, 20-25 years ago. Regardless of the merits of .40, the Gen 3 Glocks in 40 are nkt the most durable .40 service pistols. Many reached the end of their service life and had to be replaced with something, even if they had stuck with .40 but it certainly makes for it a logical time to switch calibers.

[TGS]

@URIT,

Is this just something you're hypothesizing about, or do you have any evidence to back up your assertions?

[URIT]

I didn’t have any “earlier concerns” about 9mm. Not sure where you got that. I also don’t care about a SOFREP article, as I have the actual study.

I have good friend that TDY’d to the FBI FTU while testing was going on before the transition to 9mm. He was a diehard .45 guy (he was on the regional SWAT team at the time and issued a Pro 1911), and even he was excited about switching to 9mm after what he saw. There’s not some secret reason why they switched; they lay it all out, and it’s pretty straight forward.

Mea Copa. I saw your handle on the Doubts about 9mm thread which was probably in the last posted column when I looked. Is there a link to the actual study? The SOFREP article only listed justifications presented in a letter sent out to other agencies and departments about the change.

To answer others' questions. My opinions are based on facts, myths, and folklore like many others who post on this forum. My sister-in-law's husband was an FBI special agent when they transitioned to 10mm, and his comments at the family gatherings were not favorable. I admit that his comments influenced my belief that political pressure was a greater influence than science. I am part of a LE family. I worked for a department of 900+ sworn officers and wore the badge for over 33 years, my wife worked support-staff positions for over 20 years, my FTO recruit and later partner married one of my sisters. Yes, I can shoot a handgun and even got a department trophy.

[HCM]

Mea Copa. I saw your handle on the Doubts about 9mm thread which was probably in the last posted column when I looked. Is there a link to the actual study? The SOFREP article only listed justifications presented in a letter sent out to other agencies and departments about the change.

To answer others' questions. My opinions are based on facts, myths, and folklore like many others who post on this forum. My sister-in-law's husband was an FBI special agent when they transitioned to 10mm, and his comments at the family gatherings were not favorable. I admit that his comments influenced my belief that political pressure was a greater influence than science. I am part of a LE family. I worked for a department of 900+ sworn officers and wore the badge for over 33 years, my wife worked support-staff positions for over 20 years, my FTO recruit and later partner married one of my sisters. Yes, I can shoot a handgun and even got a department trophy.

Then you know my description of the bell curve is accurate.

No matter how elite the group there is a bell curve. Look at Delta force or seal team six. The top of their bell curve for firearms proficiency are world class shooters, the bottom of their bell curve are still pretty good. And of course those bottom of the bell curve shooters may be world class skydivers, mountain climbers etc.

Policing is regional and I have worked in several different parts of the country with several different state and local agencies. There is no more old-school no nonsense department than Texas DPS, and even they have switched to 9 mm.

The FBI’s dalliance with 10 mm was a debacle, but more on the hardware and “system” side than the ammo side. The FBI wanted a 10 mm pistol which operated like a Sig classic P series. At the time Sig could not accommodate them. Smith and Wesson had never before made a pistol with a frame mounted decocker. That meant that Smith and Wesson’s 30 years of improving and debugging their double action autos was out the window. The 1076 Was a brand new generation one gun with all the potential problems that implies. Those guns went back-and-forth to Smith and Wesson several times before the bugs were worked out and they were running somewhat reliably.

The gun was based on the 4506 Frame meaning it was large heavy and a pain in the butt to carry concealed in plainclothes. It also meant that the gun was too large for a fair portion of the workforce to shoot well regardless of recoil issues.

The original full power 10 mm loads were in the 41 Magnum range of the power spectrum. The problem with that is even the few old-school departments that issued 41 bag back in the day issued the 41 special type police loads not full power magnums.Nor did the developers of 41 magnum like Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton intend for cops to carry full power magnum ammo as general issue.

When the 10 mm was downloadedTo a level matching the ballistics seen in a wildcat cut down 10mm called the centimeter which eventually became 40 S&W, And could fit into medium frame service pistols, The juice just was not worth the squeeze with the 10 mm. The 10 mm was a great sub machine gun or pistol caliber carbine round and the FBI was running them up until a couple years ago when they were phased out in favor of 556 carbines across-the-board.

In another post, I mentioned that the 9mm loading the FBI just transitioned to is not the same load they issued in the 80s and 90s. This brings up two points.

The FBI of the 80s is literally not the FBI of today. Part of that is cultural changes in LE in general and the FBI and part of it is thesignificant changes in the FBI resulting from 9/11 and the GWOT.

The second is that technology advances, and not just in guns and ammo. Traffic kills more cops than guns. If you had to get in a pursuit today, would you rather have a 1989 car with seatbelts, a big block and 1980s tire tech or a modern turbo charged vehicle with modern tires, modern steering, modern brakes and air bags and crumple zones in case you wreck ?






,

[GardoneVT]

I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/pr...-sw-cartridge/

Historical facts and TTAG?!

[Greg]

Historical facts and TTAG?!

Amen.