40S&W making a comeback

[WobblyPossum]

I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

Sure, but the shift would be to the cheapest guns featured in the slickest ads chambered in whichever caliber the officer picked as their favorite based on everything except actual testing. There would be Springfield XDs or Tauruses in duty holsters from sea to shining sea. I’m disappointed to admit it but the majority of us don’t shoot outside of agency mandated training or really care enough about guns and shooting to do research, testing, or even practice on our own time and dime.

[LockedBreech]

Sure, but the shift would be to the cheapest guns featured in the slickest ads chambered in whichever caliber the officer picked as their favorite based on everything except actual testing. There would be Springfield XDs or Tauruses in duty holsters from sea to shining sea. I’m disappointed to admit it but the majority of us don’t shoot outside of agency mandated training or really care enough about guns and shooting to do research, testing, or even practice on our own time and dime.

One of the agencies I work with has a "bring your own" policy and one of my oldest deputies, who is an excellent DWUI investigator, carries a Springfield XD in .40 S&W. It provokes a degree of dismay in me since I don't consider that a duty-reliable firearm, but I keep my mouth shut because the last thing a 28-year vet cop needs is some nerdy-ass gun nut lawyer telling him his business.

....I have come real close to gifting him my HK P30 though.

[Balisong]

One of the agencies I work with has a "bring your own" policy and one of my oldest deputies, who is an excellent DWUI investigator, carries a Springfield XD in .40 S&W. It provokes a degree of dismay in me since I don't consider that a duty-reliable firearm, but I keep my mouth shut because the last thing a 28-year vet cop needs is some nerdy-ass gun nut lawyer telling him his business.

....I have come real close to gifting him my HK P30 though.

Christmas is coming up and I wouldn't mind another P30.....

[HCM]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

Bullshit.

My department tested several cartridges independently of the FBI and arrived at the same conclusions. Differences between our 180gr .40 Federal Tactical Bonded and the 147gr HST were angels dancing on pinheads, one would penetrate a smidge more in one protocol, the other expand a bit more in another, and at the end of the day they both worked just fine.

As far as 1986 shootouts, unless you're considering running a 115gr Silvertip, it's irrelevant. Bullet construction matters more than caliber these days.

I call Bullshit as well.

My agency with 15,000 LEOs did it’s own testing of both 9mm duty ammo, the effects on officer performance with 40 vs 9mm and duty guns.

We went 9mm because is provided the same terminal ballistics in apavkage that was easier to carry and easier to shoot well under stress and time pressure. We decided to stick with 124 grain +P vs the FBIs 147 and we went Sig instead of Glock.

The TX DPS reached the same conclusion before the FBI did, going from .357 SIG to +P+ 9mm. In addition to cost and performance, the logistics of acquiring large quantities of a caliber that is made in batches rather than constant production was a factor. Like my agency DPS is large enough to do their own testing.

[HCM]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

Sure, but the shift would be to the cheapest guns featured in the slickest ads chambered in whichever caliber the officer picked as their favorite based on everything except actual testing. There would be Springfield XDs or Tauruses in duty holsters from sea to shining sea. I’m disappointed to admit it but the majority of us don’t shoot outside of agency mandated training or really care enough about guns and shooting to do research, testing, or even practice on our own time and dime.

DanM is spot on here.

Most cops are not gun people. Some care enough to make sure they are proficient with their issues or required equipment but otherwise they are not spending money time or effort thinking about guns. As the late Francis McGee, lieutenant in charge of the NYPD firearms training section once said “the average cop would rather have a nice Parker pen than a custom pistol.”

The other issue is the only thing cheaper than a cop, is two cops .

[spinmove_]

That’s my point...at some point, the FBI will have an incident that causes them to do another test and they will come back that they need a bigger bullet.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Reason being is testing protocol and what they’re actually testing. Back in the 80’s bullet construction wasn’t what it is today. Therefore 115gr Silvertip didn’t and still doesn't meet today’s preferred standards. What are today’s standards? Penetration between 12” and 18” while performing through various barriers (i.e. bare gel, 4 layers of denim, heavy clothing, sheetrock, plywood, sheet metal, and auto glass).

Notice how the criteria is distinctly devoid of an expansion diameter? All they want from expansion is that it’s reliable and consistent from bullet to bullet so that it meets penetration depths and doesn’t over penetrate. Crushing, cutting, or tearing flesh is just icing on the cake and a by-product of how the bullet was constructed and designed to expand.

Who knows, maybe they will find a reason why a bigger and/or heavier bullet is needed. But my guess is that if they ever do, it’ll be WAY far down the line and it’ll be due to some crazy way how bullets are constructed in 2019 simply aren’t good enough for taking down humans which haven’t compositionally changed in quite some time or there is a new barrier material that needs to be penetrated. The funny thing about penetrating barriers is though: physics dictates that you typically need a smaller diameter while also traveling at a faster rate in order to ensure penetration.

[HCM]

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Reason being is testing protocol and what they’re actually testing. Back in the 80’s bullet construction wasn’t what it is today. Therefore 115gr Silvertip didn’t and still doesn't meet today’s preferred standards. What are today’s standards? Penetration between 12” and 18” while performing through various barriers (i.e. bare gel, 4 layers of denim, heavy clothing, sheetrock, plywood, sheet metal, and auto glass).

Notice how the criteria is distinctly devoid of an expansion diameter? All they want from expansion is that it’s reliable and consistent from bullet to bullet so that it meets penetration depths and doesn’t over penetrate. Crushing, cutting, or tearing flesh is just icing on the cake and a by-product of how the bullet was constructed and designed to expand.

Who knows, maybe they will find a reason why a bigger and/or heavier bullet is needed. But my guess is that if they ever do, it’ll be WAY far down the line and it’ll be due to some crazy way how bullets are constructed in 2019 simply aren’t good enough for taking down humans which haven’t compositionally changed in quite some time or there is a new barrier material that needs to be penetrated. The funny thing about penetrating barriers is though: physics dictates that you typically need a smaller diameter while also traveling at a faster rate in order to ensure penetration.

Not only was bullet construction in the 1980s not what it is today but the testing process for terminal ballistics was not what it is today either.

It’s hard to pick the right answer when you aren’t even asking the right question.

The current test protocols, particularly the 4 layer denim test, have been extensively correlated with real world shooting results.

[deputyG23]

I have no idea what will happen politically in the future, but I do know that putting all your eggs in one basket can be a bad idea. Thus, I continue to own a few .40's and am not about to sell them.

I remember when 9mm was unobtainable or expensive just a few years ago. .40 was almost always available. I will try to keep at least a couple of .40s around if all possible even after my work switches to 9mm in a year or two if I haven't retired by then.

[TC215]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

Bullshit.

My department tested several cartridges independently of the FBI and arrived at the same conclusions. Differences between our 180gr .40 Federal Tactical Bonded and the 147gr HST were angels dancing on pinheads, one would penetrate a smidge more in one protocol, the other expand a bit more in another, and at the end of the day they both worked just fine.

As far as 1986 shootouts, unless you're considering running a 115gr Silvertip, it's irrelevant. Bullet construction matters more than caliber these days.

I’m looking at the FBI study/presentation as I type this. It’s pretty well done, and mirrors the opinions of people here that know what they’re talking about. There are 5 main reasons listed for the switch, and cost is not one of them. They do mention later on that there will be cost savings on training ammunition annually, but that was hardly a driving factor.

[deputyG23]

I’m looking at the FBI study/presentation as I type this. It’s pretty well done, and mirrors the opinions of people here that know what they’re talking about. There are 5 main reasons listed for the switch, and cost is not one of them. They do mention later on that there will be cost savings on training ammunition annually, but that was hardly a driving factor.

Practice ammo costs will go down, but duty ammo costs will most likely be a wash if the same sized 9mm gun is selected as the previous .40. Two more duty rounds in each mag carried.